Why 2024?

On May 30, 7:43 am, Richard Riley wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 06:33:10 GMT, cavelamb himself





wrote:
Richard Riley wrote:

On 29 May 2007 11:02:30 -0700, Bob Kuykendall
wrote:

As for another poster who says that 6061-T6 is too brittle, do you
have a cite for that very general assertion? How does that reconcile
with the fact that Zenith makes entire airplanes out of the stuff?

Of course, that didn't work out so well when they made the Cricket.

Uh, because it was designed for 6061-T6?

I'm not speaking from personal knowledge, but it's been on the CriCri
mailing list several times.

The Cri-Cri was designed for 2024-T3 for the spar fittings and a few
other places. When Zenith struck a deal to sell kits in the US they
substituted 6061 and called it the Cricket.

The results were very bad. To this day the designer refuses to sell
plans within the US. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The Hummelbird plans show 2024T3 for the wing spar attach
fittings, but it's not really obvious and if the builder is busy
cutting 6061 for all the other stuff he might just make them out of
it. Could be bad.

Dan

For all or you that are interested. I've made the brackets out
of 2024 and the 2024 bends harder, but doesn't seem to snap
as easy.
Lou

In article . com,
Lou wrote:

For all or you that are interested. I've made the brackets out
of 2024 and the 2024 bends harder, but doesn't seem to snap
as easy.
Lou

Of course, 2024-T3 doesn't snap as easily as 6061-T6! It is the "T
number" that determines brittleness (and stiffness).

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 03:05:30 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article . com,
Lou wrote:

For all or you that are interested. I've made the brackets out
of 2024 and the 2024 bends harder, but doesn't seem to snap
as easy.
Lou

Of course, 2024-T3 doesn't snap as easily as 6061-T6! It is the "T
number" that determines brittleness (and stiffness).

Orval, stiffness is the same for the same alloy, and substantially the
same for all aluminum alloys, independent of heat treatment
conditions. "T-number" has nothing to do with stiffness.

Yield strengths (and tensile, but yield is the one we USUALLY care
about) vary amont alloys and heat treatments.

2024 is about 5% "stiffer" than 6061. 2024-T4 yields about 40% more
in tension than 6061-T6 before breaking.

In article ,
GeorgeB wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 03:05:30 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article . com,
Lou wrote:

For all or you that are interested. I've made the brackets out
of 2024 and the 2024 bends harder, but doesn't seem to snap
as easy.
Lou

Of course, 2024-T3 doesn't snap as easily as 6061-T6! It is the "T
number" that determines brittleness (and stiffness).

Orval, stiffness is the same for the same alloy, and substantially the
same for all aluminum alloys, independent of heat treatment
conditions. "T-number" has nothing to do with stiffness.

No, it isn't! Try to bend some .025 6061-T3 and then some 6061-T6. You
will find the T2 bends more easily.


Yield strengths (and tensile, but yield is the one we USUALLY care
about) vary amont alloys and heat treatments.

That is why "T-number" controls stiffness, since bending is the result
of inelastic deformation. It takes more torque to bend a piece of T6 vs
T3 of the same alloy and thickness.


2024 is about 5% "stiffer" than 6061. 2024-T4 yields about 40% more
in tension than 6061-T6 before breaking.

Yes.

On Jun 13, 7:30 pm, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
In article ,



GeorgeB wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 03:05:30 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article . com,
Lou wrote:

For all or you that are interested. I've made the brackets out
of 2024 and the 2024 bends harder, but doesn't seem to snap
as easy.
Lou

Of course, 2024-T3 doesn't snap as easily as 6061-T6! It is the "T
number" that determines brittleness (and stiffness).

Orval, stiffness is the same for the same alloy, and substantially the
same for all aluminum alloys, independent of heat treatment
conditions. "T-number" has nothing to do with stiffness.

No, it isn't! Try to bend some .025 6061-T3 and then some 6061-T6. You
will find the T2 bends more easily.

Wrong. GeorgeB was correct.

You are confusing yield strength with stiffness.

Stiffness refers only to elastic deformation.
Strength refers only to plastic deformation.

Elastic deformation is when it bends and
then springs back to exactly the same
shape it was before. Plastic deformation
is when it stays bent.

The stiffness of a material is the ratio of stress to strain.
The formal name for that material property is the spring
constant or Young's modulus.

Ignoring allotropes for the sake of simplicity, the
stiffness of a material depends only on gross
composition and is independent of temper.

Thus all low-alloy steels have the same stiffness
which is just about the same as plain old iron.

Yield strength is the minimum stress that will
result in plastic deformation (e.g. a permanent
bend.)

Heat treatment affects yield (and ultimate strength.

So if you make a spring out of annealed 4130
and another out of hardened 4130 they will both
stretch the same amount for the same applied
force, so long as you do not apply so much force
that either is permanently stretched. (e.g. the
applied stress is in the elastic range) They are
equally stiff.

However the force that leaves the annealed spring
permanently deformed (yielded) is much less than
that which leaves the hardened spring deformed.
The hardened material is stronger, and so it
remains 'springy' over a range of stress that would
leave the other spring 'sprung'.

The difference between 'spring' steel and ordinary
steel is the strength, not the stiffness.

The same is true for all alloys, not just steel.



Yield strengths (and tensile, but yield is the one we USUALLY care
about) vary amont alloys and heat treatments.

That is why "T-number" controls stiffness, since bending is the result
of inelastic deformation. It takes more torque to bend a piece of T6 vs
T3 of the same alloy and thickness.

Wrong. It takes equal torque to bend each
_in the elastic rage_. It takes more torque to
_yield_ the stronger piece.

'Bend' is ambiguous. You can bend the piece
and have it spring back all the way (elastic
deformation) or you can bend it and have it stay
bent (plastic deformation).

Stiffness refers only to the elastic deformation.

Strength refers only to the plastic deformation.



2024 is about 5% "stiffer" than 6061. 2024-T4 yields about 40% more
in tension than 6061-T6 before breaking.

Yes.

Yes.

--

FF

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:30:04 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

Of course, 2024-T3 doesn't snap as easily as 6061-T6! It is the "T
number" that determines brittleness (and stiffness).

Orval, stiffness is the same for the same alloy, and substantially the
same for all aluminum alloys, independent of heat treatment
conditions. "T-number" has nothing to do with stiffness.

No, it isn't! Try to bend some .025 6061-T3 and then some 6061-T6. You
will find the T2 bends more easily.

If you want to use incorrect terminology, that is fine. Stiffness has
nothing to do with plastic deformation. If you take the same size
piece of 5052, 6061, 2024, or 7075 and load them the same BEFORE
plastic deformation, you will see virtually no (less than 10%)
difference in deflection vs load.

A socket head capscrew, US, is about 220,000 psi yield strength. A
cheap hex head bolt is about 30,000p psi yield strength. For the same
load, before plastic (inelastic as you use) deformation, both will
stretch the same and recover the same.

Yield strengths (and tensile, but yield is the one we USUALLY care
about) vary among alloys and heat treatments.

That is why "T-number" controls stiffness, since bending is the result
of inelastic deformation. It takes more torque to bend a piece of T6 vs
T3 of the same alloy and thickness.

Stiffness and INelastic (usually referred to as "plastic") deformation
have less in common than your and my knowledge of material science.

2024 is about 5% "stiffer" than 6061. 2024-T4 yields about 40% more
in tension than 6061-T6 before breaking.

Yes.

2024-T0 is 5% stiffer than 6061-T6. 6061-T6 is 25% stronger than
2024-T0.

On Jun 15, 7:15 am, GeorgeB wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:30:04 GMT, Orval Fairbairn

wrote:
Of course, 2024-T3 doesn't snap as easily as 6061-T6! It is the "T
number" that determines brittleness (and stiffness).

Orval, stiffness is the same for the same alloy, and substantially the
same for all aluminum alloys, independent of heat treatment
conditions. "T-number" has nothing to do with stiffness.

No, it isn't! Try to bend some .025 6061-T3 and then some 6061-T6. You
will find the T2 bends more easily.

If you want to use incorrect terminology, that is fine. Stiffness has
nothing to do with plastic deformation. If you take the same size
piece of 5052, 6061, 2024, or 7075 and load them the same BEFORE
plastic deformation, you will see virtually no (less than 10%)
difference in deflection vs load.

A socket head capscrew, US, is about 220,000 psi yield strength. A
cheap hex head bolt is about 30,000p psi yield strength. For the same
load, before plastic (inelastic as you use) deformation, both will
stretch the same and recover the same.

Yield strengths (and tensile, but yield is the one we USUALLY care
about) vary among alloys and heat treatments.

That is why "T-number" controls stiffness, since bending is the result
of inelastic deformation. It takes more torque to bend a piece of T6 vs
T3 of the same alloy and thickness.

Stiffness and INelastic (usually referred to as "plastic") deformation
have less in common than your and my knowledge of material science.

2024 is about 5% "stiffer" than 6061. 2024-T4 yields about 40% more
in tension than 6061-T6 before breaking.

Yes.

2024-T0 is 5% stiffer than 6061-T6. 6061-T6 is 25% stronger than
2024-T0.

You're not confusing 2024T4 with 2024T0, I hope?

Dan