Fly Boy ?????

One further comment. When a
crew has to hit the silk, the pilot is not the first to go, he is always the
last to go. Thus the questions.


Agree - and for many years, the question about Bush's crew bothered me a lot.
The book addresses what happened and Bush's 'survivor guilt', but I agree, if
the pilot returns and none of his crew does, its a problem. I know of a
Mosquito Nav that discovered he was in an unpiloted a/c after his chicken****
pilot had bailed out on him after a nearby flak explosion. The Nav eventually
made it out and walked out of Luftgau 17B some months later. Upon returning to
the UK for debrief, he was surprised to pass his "pilot" in the hall en route
to the inquest - the pilot saw him and bolted, bleating, "but I thought you
were dead!!" I'd have hunted McCallum down and shot him, personally. LMF my
ass, this guy was a coward down to his cells. Opposite is when another Mossie
took a terminal hit at 33,000' and the escape hatch jammed. The pilot stayed
in down to 6 grand, waiting on the Nav to escape and only at that point did he
direct the Nav to follow him out the top hatch (the pilot had to be out of his
seat for the Nav to use his overhead hatch). In that case, the pilot perished,
while his Nav hit the ground after two swings in his 'chute.

I do agree - if your crew doesn't make it back, the pilot generally shouldn't
either.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/22/03 11:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

One further comment. When a
crew has to hit the silk, the pilot is not the first to go, he is always the
last to go. Thus the questions.


Agree - and for many years, the question about Bush's crew bothered me a lot.

The book addresses what happened and Bush's 'survivor guilt', but I agree, if
the pilot returns and none of his crew does, its a problem. I know of a
Mosquito Nav that discovered he was in an unpiloted a/c after his chicken****
pilot had bailed out on him after a nearby flak explosion. The Nav
eventually
made it out and walked out of Luftgau 17B some months later. Upon returning
to
the UK for debrief, he was surprised to pass his "pilot" in the hall en route
to the inquest - the pilot saw him and bolted, bleating, "but I thought you
were dead!!" I'd have hunted McCallum down and shot him, personally. LMF my
ass, this guy was a coward down to his cells. Opposite is when another
Mossie
took a terminal hit at 33,000' and the escape hatch jammed. The pilot stayed
in down to 6 grand, waiting on the Nav to escape and only at that point did
he
direct the Nav to follow him out the top hatch (the pilot had to be out of
his
seat for the Nav to use his overhead hatch). In that case, the pilot
perished,
while his Nav hit the ground after two swings in his 'chute.

I do agree - if your crew doesn't make it back, the pilot generally shouldn't
either.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."


Anyone with combat experience is familiar with the pilot goes last tradition.
Once you hear that the pilot suivived but the crew was lost a few hundred
thousand aircrew all get their suspicions aroused. It is the normal natural
response for those with combat experience. Only inexperienced wannabees would
look at it any other way.
..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: (ArtKramr)


Anyone with combat experience is familiar with the pilot goes last tradition.
Once you hear that the pilot suivived but the crew was lost a few hundred
thousand aircrew all get their suspicions aroused. It is the normal natural
response for those with combat experience. Only inexperienced wannabees would
look at it any other way.
Arthur Kramer

This has been an interesting thread,,,,,but........

I can't get one particular piece of footage out of my head. It is the film of
that silver (non painted) B-24 somewhere over Italy (I think, but my memory is
starting to really suck) taking a flak hit right around the number 2 engine
with the almost instant crumpling of the wing right at that engine. The plane
IMMEDIATELY begins its fall as the gas tank ruptures and fire breaks out at the
wing root.

Within 4 or 5 seconds, this aircraft was in a death spiral, probably with
enough G force to pin most of the crew against their compartment walls.

There wasn't a damn thing this pilot could do to "fly" this airplane...he was
merely a passenger soon after the wing separated and control was completely
lost.

I can only imagine that the pilot called a bailout, and after that it was
"every man for himself" because this plane WAS NOT flying anymore. If anybody
got out of it alive, I'd certainly be surprised.

Now, IF the pilot got out and was the only one to survive that incident, I
guess it would seem sort of suspect to the rest of the unit's guys with respect
to the "pilot goes last tradition", but in the actual course of events, "stuff"
happened....and happened really, really fast. I'd say anybody who wasn't out of
that aircraft within ten or fifteen seconds (max) probably died in it.

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered in a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Dav1936531)
Date: 10/22/03 8:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From: (ArtKramr)


Anyone with combat experience is familiar with the pilot goes last
tradition.
Once you hear that the pilot suivived but the crew was lost a few hundred
thousand aircrew all get their suspicions aroused. It is the normal natural
response for those with combat experience. Only inexperienced wannabees would
look at it any other way.
Arthur Kramer

This has been an interesting thread,,,,,but........

I can't get one particular piece of footage out of my head. It is the film of
that silver (non painted) B-24 somewhere over Italy (I think, but my memory
is
starting to really suck) taking a flak hit right around the number 2 engine
with the almost instant crumpling of the wing right at that engine. The plane
IMMEDIATELY begins its fall as the gas tank ruptures and fire breaks out at
the
wing root.

Within 4 or 5 seconds, this aircraft was in a death spiral, probably with
enough G force to pin most of the crew against their compartment walls.

There wasn't a damn thing this pilot could do to "fly" this airplane...he was
merely a passenger soon after the wing separated and control was completely
lost.

I can only imagine that the pilot called a bailout, and after that it was
"every man for himself" because this plane WAS NOT flying anymore. If anybody
got out of it alive, I'd certainly be surprised.

Now, IF the pilot got out and was the only one to survive that incident, I
guess it would seem sort of suspect to the rest of the unit's guys with
respect
to the "pilot goes last tradition", but in the actual course of events,
"stuff"
happened....and happened really, really fast. I'd say anybody who wasn't out
of
that aircraft within ten or fifteen seconds (max) probably died in it.

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered in
a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave


True. But he still would be suspect since most would not know the details fo
the loss. When a crew is lost and only a pilot survives, questions will be
asked no matter what.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From Art Kramer:

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered in
a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave

True. But he still would be suspect since most would not know the details fo
the loss. When a crew is lost and only a pilot survives, questions will be
asked no matter what.

On March 20, 1945 on a mission to Campo, near the Austrian border, B25J
#327487 received a direct hit by an 88MM shell and went down. Crew included
Mack Coneglio, Granger McKinnan, Racetlo and Zawestowski. Mack (pilot) was the
sole survivor and spent the remainder of the war in Mooseburg Prison Camp.
So instances of only the pilot surviving as a matter of luck did occur. Of
course, in most cases no one knew who--if any--of a crew that went down over
enemy territory survived. They just weren't around anymore.


Chris Mark

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 10/22/03 10:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From Art Kramer:

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered
in
a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave

True. But he still would be suspect since most would not know the details
fo
the loss. When a crew is lost and only a pilot survives, questions will be
asked no matter what.

On March 20, 1945 on a mission to Campo, near the Austrian border, B25J
#327487 received a direct hit by an 88MM shell and went down. Crew included
Mack Coneglio, Granger McKinnan, Racetlo and Zawestowski. Mack (pilot) was
the
sole survivor and spent the remainder of the war in Mooseburg Prison Camp.
So instances of only the pilot surviving as a matter of luck did occur. Of
course, in most cases no one knew who--if any--of a crew that went down over
enemy territory survived. They just weren't around anymore.


Chris Mark

True. But that small lingering doubt always wll remain since the pilot is
responsible for his crew.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: artkramr@a

That small lingering doubt always wll remain since the pilot is
responsible for his crew.

Can't get away from that. When I heard the story of Bush 41 surviving while
his crew perished I experienced a mental "Hmmm," but never went beyond that,
not knowing the details. I caught the author of "Flyboys" on C-Span recently
and listened to his presentation, as a result of which I ordered through our
local library the book, which hasn't come in yet. I hope it will clear up
doubts about what happened with Bush, as well as explain Japanese actions. The
author seems to have spent as much time looking at Japanese motives from the
Japanese perspective as looking at the American side--something that's pretty
rare.
But I'm willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. War is full of queer
turns of fate. I'm reminded of the story of Lee McAllister, pilot of a B-25
shot down while on a mission to knock out a bridge over the Adige in the
Lagarina Valley. He was the last man out. He kept the plane on an even keel as
its load of WP (for dumping on the flak guns surrounding the bridge) burned so
that everyone could get out. Then he didn't have the easiest time getting out
himself. As a result, while the rest of his crew landed close together and
were quickly rounded up by the Germans and herded into PoW camps where they
survived the war, he came down some distance away and was rescued by Italian
partisans. Lucky him, right? Except that after a few desperate weeks on the
run, the Germans caught him. The gestapo tortured him for days to force him to
tell details of the partisan operation. He defied them, revealing nothing. So
they put a pistol to the back of his head, shot him and dumped his body along a
roadside. Details of his fate only emerged years after the war. He was just a
kid from Salem, Ore. who had a rotten run of luck. One of so very many.


Chris Mark

"Gordon" a écrit dans le message de
...
.. Opposite is when another Mossie
took a terminal hit at 33,000' and the escape hatch jammed. The pilot
stayed
in down to 6 grand, waiting on the Nav to escape and only at that point
did he
direct the Nav to follow him out the top hatch (the pilot had to be out of
his
seat for the Nav to use his overhead hatch). In that case, the pilot
perished,
while his Nav hit the ground after two swings in his 'chute.


There was also this Free French pilot of the Normandie-Niémen squadron, on
the russian front. As he was approaching a new airfield at the end of a
relocation flight, his Yak had a major engine malfunction. Despite formal
orders from both French and Russians officers to jump and save his life, he
refused to bail out and therefore abandon his Russian mechanic he was
transporting in the rear tank of his plane. Both perished.

His name was Maurice De Seynes.

ArVa

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "ArVa"
Date: 10/22/03 3:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Gordon" a écrit dans le message de
...
. Opposite is when another Mossie
took a terminal hit at 33,000' and the escape hatch jammed. The pilot
stayed
in down to 6 grand, waiting on the Nav to escape and only at that point
did he
direct the Nav to follow him out the top hatch (the pilot had to be out of
his
seat for the Nav to use his overhead hatch). In that case, the pilot
perished,
while his Nav hit the ground after two swings in his 'chute.


There was also this Free French pilot of the Normandie-Niémen squadron, on
the russian front. As he was approaching a new airfield at the end of a
relocation flight, his Yak had a major engine malfunction. Despite formal
orders from both French and Russians officers to jump and save his life, he
refused to bail out and therefore abandon his Russian mechanic he was
transporting in the rear tank of his plane. Both perished.

His name was Maurice De Seynes.

ArVa


A name to remember.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I think he lived up to his responsibility to the helpless passenger - thanks
for sharing his story, Arva