Fly Boy ?????

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Dav1936531)
Date: 10/22/03 8:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From: (ArtKramr)


Anyone with combat experience is familiar with the pilot goes last
tradition.
Once you hear that the pilot suivived but the crew was lost a few hundred
thousand aircrew all get their suspicions aroused. It is the normal natural
response for those with combat experience. Only inexperienced wannabees would
look at it any other way.
Arthur Kramer

This has been an interesting thread,,,,,but........

I can't get one particular piece of footage out of my head. It is the film of
that silver (non painted) B-24 somewhere over Italy (I think, but my memory
is
starting to really suck) taking a flak hit right around the number 2 engine
with the almost instant crumpling of the wing right at that engine. The plane
IMMEDIATELY begins its fall as the gas tank ruptures and fire breaks out at
the
wing root.

Within 4 or 5 seconds, this aircraft was in a death spiral, probably with
enough G force to pin most of the crew against their compartment walls.

There wasn't a damn thing this pilot could do to "fly" this airplane...he was
merely a passenger soon after the wing separated and control was completely
lost.

I can only imagine that the pilot called a bailout, and after that it was
"every man for himself" because this plane WAS NOT flying anymore. If anybody
got out of it alive, I'd certainly be surprised.

Now, IF the pilot got out and was the only one to survive that incident, I
guess it would seem sort of suspect to the rest of the unit's guys with
respect
to the "pilot goes last tradition", but in the actual course of events,
"stuff"
happened....and happened really, really fast. I'd say anybody who wasn't out
of
that aircraft within ten or fifteen seconds (max) probably died in it.

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered in
a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave


True. But he still would be suspect since most would not know the details fo
the loss. When a crew is lost and only a pilot survives, questions will be
asked no matter what.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From Art Kramer:

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered in
a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave

True. But he still would be suspect since most would not know the details fo
the loss. When a crew is lost and only a pilot survives, questions will be
asked no matter what.

On March 20, 1945 on a mission to Campo, near the Austrian border, B25J
#327487 received a direct hit by an 88MM shell and went down. Crew included
Mack Coneglio, Granger McKinnan, Racetlo and Zawestowski. Mack (pilot) was the
sole survivor and spent the remainder of the war in Mooseburg Prison Camp.
So instances of only the pilot surviving as a matter of luck did occur. Of
course, in most cases no one knew who--if any--of a crew that went down over
enemy territory survived. They just weren't around anymore.


Chris Mark

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 10/22/03 10:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From Art Kramer:

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered
in
a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave

True. But he still would be suspect since most would not know the details
fo
the loss. When a crew is lost and only a pilot survives, questions will be
asked no matter what.

On March 20, 1945 on a mission to Campo, near the Austrian border, B25J
#327487 received a direct hit by an 88MM shell and went down. Crew included
Mack Coneglio, Granger McKinnan, Racetlo and Zawestowski. Mack (pilot) was
the
sole survivor and spent the remainder of the war in Mooseburg Prison Camp.
So instances of only the pilot surviving as a matter of luck did occur. Of
course, in most cases no one knew who--if any--of a crew that went down over
enemy territory survived. They just weren't around anymore.


Chris Mark

True. But that small lingering doubt always wll remain since the pilot is
responsible for his crew.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: artkramr@a

That small lingering doubt always wll remain since the pilot is
responsible for his crew.

Can't get away from that. When I heard the story of Bush 41 surviving while
his crew perished I experienced a mental "Hmmm," but never went beyond that,
not knowing the details. I caught the author of "Flyboys" on C-Span recently
and listened to his presentation, as a result of which I ordered through our
local library the book, which hasn't come in yet. I hope it will clear up
doubts about what happened with Bush, as well as explain Japanese actions. The
author seems to have spent as much time looking at Japanese motives from the
Japanese perspective as looking at the American side--something that's pretty
rare.
But I'm willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. War is full of queer
turns of fate. I'm reminded of the story of Lee McAllister, pilot of a B-25
shot down while on a mission to knock out a bridge over the Adige in the
Lagarina Valley. He was the last man out. He kept the plane on an even keel as
its load of WP (for dumping on the flak guns surrounding the bridge) burned so
that everyone could get out. Then he didn't have the easiest time getting out
himself. As a result, while the rest of his crew landed close together and
were quickly rounded up by the Germans and herded into PoW camps where they
survived the war, he came down some distance away and was rescued by Italian
partisans. Lucky him, right? Except that after a few desperate weeks on the
run, the Germans caught him. The gestapo tortured him for days to force him to
tell details of the partisan operation. He defied them, revealing nothing. So
they put a pistol to the back of his head, shot him and dumped his body along a
roadside. Details of his fate only emerged years after the war. He was just a
kid from Salem, Ore. who had a rotten run of luck. One of so very many.


Chris Mark

When I heard the story of Bush 41 surviving while
his crew perished I experienced a mental "Hmmm," but never went beyond that,
not knowing the details.

As a Navy backseater, I think we all went HMMMMMM when we heard the story the
first time.

I caught the author of "Flyboys" on C-Span recently
and listened to his presentation, as a result of which I ordered through our
local library the book, which hasn't come in yet. I hope it will clear up
doubts about what happened with Bush, as well as explain Japanese actions.
The
author seems to have spent as much time looking at Japanese motives from the
Japanese perspective as looking at the American side--something that's pretty
rare.

Your assessment is spot-on. The book does exactly this: it gives historical
background to the imperial "climate" that the Japanese faced from European and
American expansion in Asia, giving it as the main reason for the Japanese
military's climb to power and ultimate defeat. It gives an unflinching look
into how we were viewed by the Japanese, and just as importantly, why we were
seen that way. It was a grisly, horrible little book that I think deserves a
read, if only to answer the questions about Bush and the Japanese motivation
for what happened on Chichi Jima and other hellish places to die in the
Pacific.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 9:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

When I heard the story of Bush 41 surviving while
his crew perished I experienced a mental "Hmmm," but never went beyond that,
not knowing the details.

As a Navy backseater, I think we all went HMMMMMM when we heard the story the
first time.

I caught the author of "Flyboys" on C-Span recently
and listened to his presentation, as a result of which I ordered through our
local library the book, which hasn't come in yet. I hope it will clear up
doubts about what happened with Bush, as well as explain Japanese actions.
The
author seems to have spent as much time looking at Japanese motives from the
Japanese perspective as looking at the American side--something that's
pretty
rare.

Your assessment is spot-on. The book does exactly this: it gives historical
background to the imperial "climate" that the Japanese faced from European
and
American expansion in Asia, giving it as the main reason for the Japanese
military's climb to power and ultimate defeat. It gives an unflinching look
into how we were viewed by the Japanese, and just as importantly, why we were
seen that way. It was a grisly, horrible little book that I think deserves a
read, if only to answer the questions about Bush and the Japanese motivation
for what happened on Chichi Jima and other hellish places to die in the
Pacific.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew


Had he ditched they may have all come out alive.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Had he ditched they may have all come out alive.

Certainly possible - the author goes to great pains to establish that Bush
himself still harbors doubt as to whether he did the right thing. He had an
aircraft that was barely controllable and any water landing would have been a
crash, not a ditch, and few Avenger crewmen survived in either event. Bush
states that he flew it in a manner that would slip the tail enough to the side
that his crew could get the escape door open without having to fight the
slipstream for as long as he safely could - he got no return call from the crew
and the aircraft was failing, so he left it. I don't know what else he could
have done, but at least one of his guys parachuted out, only to die in his
attempt. Having evaluated Bush's statements with a rather jaundiced crewman's
perspective, I'd say that Bush probably did all he could under that particular
set of circumstances. The fact that his decision still tortures him a lifetime
later leads me to believe he will never be comfortable with his choices that
day, but I think he was simply lucky to be alive.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Had he ditched they may have all come out alive.


Or they all may have died.

in article , ArtKramr at
wrote on 2003/10/23 12:19:


Had he ditched they may have all come out alive.

My Uncle ditched an Avenger after running out of gas due to a
battled-damaged carrier and bad DF steer preventing a timely recovery.

His crew survived. He did not.

Tough way to win a DFC.



Jack