Cirrus down, Chapel Hill NC

On Jul 17, 9:52*pm, " wrote:
On Jul 17, 7:32*pm, a wrote:

Airports simply don't go
below minimums that often -- my last weather caused missed approach
was years ago on a non precision approach into an uncontrolled airport
in the mountains of PA and I'd bet very few of us SEL or light twin
pilots here have flown more than one or two in the past half dozen
years.

Actually, A it may be a regional thing but it's very common for my
airport KMBO to go below approach minimums especially in the morning
when low stratus moves up from the gulf.. *ILS *KJAN minimums are very
common in fall and spring here as well.

I would have shot lots of those ILS approaches myself however, that
meant not coming home to my own non precision approach airport (KMBO)

Thanks! I guess my experience/mission profile is different and may
not be representative. Most times places where I am going are serviced
by an ILS. Even secondary 'reliever' airports around major cities have
ILS approaches and car rental kiosks.

On Jul 13, 7:47*am, a wrote:
It may be selective memory on my part, but it seems these airplanes
have been over represented among GA accidents lately.

The story of this crash can be found here (and elsewhere)

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_s...e-Plane-crashe...

The NTSB preliminary report has been issued.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=ERA10FA356&rpt=p

There are several items embedded in the report that were
'inconsistent' with my guesses as to what might have contributed to
this accident. Note that the pilot had a significant number of hours
-- over a hundred -- as PIC in this airplane, and a reasonable amount
of total time -- 400 plus. A hundred hours in the Cirrus, probably 70
landings. The PIC could have been any medium time pilot among us. If
it was VFR those numbers would have given me enough confidence to sit
in the back seat!

What is the lesson we who fly can learn from this-- be careful to
control airspeed on final? Control attitude on go-round? Pay
attention to the basics?

It was a flight for a sad purpose with an even sadder ending. May all
somehow find peace.

On Jul 20, 10:07*am, a wrote:

What is the lesson we who fly can learn from this-- be careful to
control airspeed on final? Control attitude on go-round? *Pay
attention to the basics?

Talk about basics.... Why a downwind landing? We all know AWOS not
always correct.

In the report.

The airplane appeared to be coming in faster than usual for a small plane and according to the
windsock beside the runway; the plane was landing with the wind not against it.

Witness statement would seem to be credible if the plane had a
tailwind.

On Jul 20, 11:27*am, " wrote:
On Jul 20, 10:07*am, a wrote:

What is the lesson we who fly can learn from this-- be careful to
control airspeed on final? Control attitude on go-round? *Pay
attention to the basics?

Talk about basics.... Why a downwind landing? *We all know AWOS not
always correct.

In the report.

The airplane appeared to be coming in faster than usual for a small plane and according to the
windsock beside the runway; the plane was landing with the wind not against it.

Witness statement would seem to be credible if the plane had a
tailwind.

NTSB report says 4 knots

On Jul 20, 10:39*am, a wrote:
On Jul 20, 11:27*am, " wrote:





On Jul 20, 10:07*am, a wrote:

What is the lesson we who fly can learn from this-- be careful to
control airspeed on final? Control attitude on go-round? *Pay
attention to the basics?

Talk about basics.... Why a downwind landing? *We all know AWOS not
always correct.

In the report.

The airplane appeared to be coming in faster than usual for a small plane and according to the
windsock beside the runway; the plane was landing with the wind not against it.

Witness statement would seem to be credible if the plane had a
tailwind.

NTSB report says 4 knots- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, I saw that as well as it being a direct Xwind for runway 9 per
ASOS which seems to conflict the witness report of seeing the windsock
running the same direction of the runway.

On Jul 20, 12:14*pm, " wrote:
On Jul 20, 10:39*am, a wrote:



On Jul 20, 11:27*am, " wrote:

On Jul 20, 10:07*am, a wrote:

What is the lesson we who fly can learn from this-- be careful to
control airspeed on final? Control attitude on go-round? *Pay
attention to the basics?

Talk about basics.... Why a downwind landing? *We all know AWOS not
always correct.

In the report.

The airplane appeared to be coming in faster than usual for a small plane and according to the
windsock beside the runway; the plane was landing with the wind not against it.

Witness statement would seem to be credible if the plane had a
tailwind.

NTSB report says 4 knots- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, I saw that as well as it being a direct Xwind for runway 9 per
ASOS which seems to conflict the witness report of seeing the windsock
running the same direction of the runway.

4 knots of wind is enough to move leaves, and you can feel it on your
face. If it was a tail wind he'd have come in with an over-the-ground
speed 4 knots more than he might expect. It's a little worse than
that, if it was 4 knots at 6 feet AGL it would be half that at his
wing's AGL at touch down, in effect increasing his airspeed. My
airplane, and I am pretty sure the Cirrus has the same characteristic,
is if you carry too much speed into ground effect you're in for a
long, long, float. My experience is, you have to be patient and let
the beast want to stop flying before it settles onto the gear. Too
fast down and it'll bounce, as this man seems to have done with the
Cirrus. . It's another GA tragedy no matter what the cause.

On Jul 20, 7:57*pm, a wrote:
On Jul 20, 12:14*pm, " wrote:



On Jul 20, 10:39*am, a wrote:

On Jul 20, 11:27*am, " wrote:

On Jul 20, 10:07*am, a wrote:

What is the lesson we who fly can learn from this-- be careful to
control airspeed on final? Control attitude on go-round? *Pay
attention to the basics?

Talk about basics.... Why a downwind landing? *We all know AWOS not
always correct.

In the report.

The airplane appeared to be coming in faster than usual for a small plane and according to the
windsock beside the runway; the plane was landing with the wind not against it.

Witness statement would seem to be credible if the plane had a
tailwind.

NTSB report says 4 knots- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, I saw that as well as it being a direct Xwind for runway 9 per
ASOS which seems to conflict the witness report of seeing the windsock
running the same direction of the runway.

4 knots of wind is enough to move leaves, and you can feel it on your
face. If it was a tail wind he'd have come in with an over-the-ground
speed 4 knots more than he might expect. It's a little worse than
that, if it was 4 knots at 6 feet AGL it would be half that at his
wing's AGL at touch down, in effect increasing his airspeed. *My
airplane, and I am pretty sure the Cirrus has the same characteristic,
is if you carry too much speed into ground effect you're in for a
long, long, float. My experience is, you have to be patient and let
the beast want to stop flying before it settles onto the gear. Too
fast down and it'll bounce, as this man seems to have done with the
Cirrus. . It's another GA tragedy no matter what the cause.

Exactly my point hence me bringing out that downwind landing factor.
Real estate gets eaten up pretty quickly and in the Sundowner I
previously owned, just as your experiences, too much speed and you
float kind dom kong. I wouldn't want to imagine a tail wind component
exasperating that.

To me, it can seem somewhat conceivable that an experience person who
works at an airport be able to notice a plane moving about 7 to 10 mph
faster then normal assuming the winds were 4 knits (could have easily
been higher especially if witnesses state it seemed faster then
normal)

On Jul 24, 3:43*pm, "Stephen!" wrote:
" wrote in news:36a79c66-d103-46fb-
:

previously owned, just as your experiences, too much speed and you
float kind dom kong.

* Is that anywhere near Kingdom Come? *:P

--
RCOS #7
IBA# 11465http://imagesdesavions.com

Speaking of kingdoms come and gone, try this sometime. Get slowed down
to 80 knots at an altitude that's good for stall practice, retard the
throttle and start a stop watch and hold altitude: see how long it
takes to get you to almost stall. Do the same thing at 75 kts
indicated, then 70, then 65, build a graph. Say the average speed from
80 to 55 or whatever is 67, figure out how far into the kingdom (AKA
past the threshold) you'd have gone, do the same calculation for the
other speeds, and remember because of ground effect you'd probably add
30% to that distance. You need a bigger and bigger kingdom if you
carry too much speed into the flare.

It's even worse if, as has been suggested, there's a bit of a tail
wind in the case of the Cirrus. You might be carrying 65 knots
airspeed at 10 feet AGL, but because of the wind gradient, that might
turn into 68 knots at 5 feet AGL and you have to fly that much farther
to burn off that energy and get the damn thing to stop flying. That
may have bought the pilot and one other an early and unfortunate
admission into the next kingdom.

The likely lesson is, learn or relearn to control your energy!

On 7/24/2010 2:40 PM, Stephen! wrote:
wrote in news:0425e0c8-3e89-40c5-a659-04964ffd3d53
@q22g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:


The NTSB preliminary report has been issued.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=ERA10FA356&rpt=p


PIO. Certainly not the first and sadly not the last.


Landing bunny-hops, specially divergent hops are risky.
I did a series like that on first landing a short coupled
Tippsey Nipper long ago.
But they were not divergent. Just bounce, power, try again - three or
four times. Naughty. One bounce is cause enough to go round, no doubt.

Never heard these called a "PIO" before - which I associate with
control corrections which cause divergent oscillations, for which the
remedy is to remove your hands from the yoke!

Still, bunny hops ARE divergent oscillations, come to think of it....

Brian W

Stephen! wrote:

a wrote in
news:9bc82c51-ad2d-48c4-bbd8-03eb64291845
@g35g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

The likely lesson is, learn or relearn to control your energy!

All good points but I think a better lesson from this crash would
be how to decide when you've blown the landing and go around.


It take time to know how to land a plane. It takes longer to know when not
to land a plane.