Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 11:09 AM Pacific

Never flew an A-10, obviously.

You never flew anything. That's the bottom line right? Never fought anyone
and
never experienced combat right? Not much left for you is there?

Nope. Never flew other than as a passenger. And that would be important
because...? Not a bit ashamed of my service, and unlike you I have never had
to resort to making things up in order to bolster my own self-image. That
you have to do that is kind of sad, really--one would think you did enough
to be proud of your service without having to go to such extremes. But,
since we can't really place any trust in your claims, maybe you have reason
for fabricating material that you feel better reflects on you.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 12:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 11:09 AM Pacific

Never flew an A-10, obviously.

You never flew anything. That's the bottom line right? Never fought anyone
and
never experienced combat right? Not much left for you is there?

Nope. Never flew other than as a passenger. And that would be important
because...? Not a bit ashamed of my service, and unlike you I have never had
to resort to making things up in order to bolster my own self-image. That
you have to do that is kind of sad, really--one would think you did enough
to be proud of your service without having to go to such extremes. But,
since we can't really place any trust in your claims, maybe you have reason
for fabricating material that you feel better reflects on you.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer



comes down to the same thing There are those of us who fought and those who
didn't. You have a a lot to answer for.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 12:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 11:09 AM Pacific

Never flew an A-10, obviously.

You never flew anything. That's the bottom line right? Never fought
anyone
and
never experienced combat right? Not much left for you is there?

Nope. Never flew other than as a passenger. And that would be important
because...? Not a bit ashamed of my service, and unlike you I have never
had
to resort to making things up in order to bolster my own self-image. That
you have to do that is kind of sad, really--one would think you did
enough
to be proud of your service without having to go to such extremes. But,
since we can't really place any trust in your claims, maybe you have
reason
for fabricating material that you feel better reflects on you.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer



comes down to the same thing There are those of us who fought and those
who
didn't. You have a a lot to answer for.

No, Art only one of us has repeatedly refused to answer the questions posed
to him (even though they were specifically requested to be put forward), and
that would be you. Other posters have noted your refusal to address your
record of falsehoods, so I don't know who you are trying to mislead.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer

Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 12:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 3/2/04 11:09 AM Pacific

Never flew an A-10, obviously.

You never flew anything. That's the bottom line right? Never fought
anyone
and
never experienced combat right? Not much left for you is there?

Nope. Never flew other than as a passenger. And that would be important
because...? Not a bit ashamed of my service, and unlike you I have never
had
to resort to making things up in order to bolster my own self-image. That
you have to do that is kind of sad, really--one would think you did
enough
to be proud of your service without having to go to such extremes. But,
since we can't really place any trust in your claims, maybe you have
reason
for fabricating material that you feel better reflects on you.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer



comes down to the same thing There are those of us who fought and those
who
didn't. You have a a lot to answer for.

No, Art only one of us has repeatedly refused to answer the questions posed
to him (even though they were specifically requested to be put forward), and
that would be you. Other posters have noted your refusal to address your
record of falsehoods, so I don't know who you are trying to mislead.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer


The questions are stupid and without any merit whatever as is your pathetic
military reocrd. And those of us who fought have nothing to answer for to
cowardly wannabees.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In message , ArtKramr
writes
comes down to the same thing There are those of us who fought and those who
didn't.

No, Art.

There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but
weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and
those who would refuse.

You have a a lot to answer for.

In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the
Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault
they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 3/2/04 12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
comes down to the same thing There are those of us who fought and those who
didn't.

No, Art.

There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but
weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and
those who would refuse.

You have a a lot to answer for.

In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the
Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault
they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk


Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force,
the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers. Then there are those who didn't. They just
waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there is a
difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In message , ArtKramr
writes
There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but
weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and
those who would refuse.

You have a a lot to answer for.

In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the
Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault
they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk


Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force,
the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers.

Art, I *work* with Royal Marines, Paras and members of other specialist
units. They accept my experience and trust my judgement in my fields of
expertise, just as I have complete faith in theirs.

Many of them have not seen combat, even when other members of their unit
have (assigned to other duties, in the wrong battalion, whatever).
Should we - for an example - denigrate the courage of 1 Para because
they weren't sent to the Falklands? Are they "less brave" than, for
example, the Blues and Royals or the Scots Guards, who despite not being
"Air Force, Marines or Paras" went and fought?

We thankfully don't have to do total wars these days: some regiments are
sent to a conflict, others have other missions to cover.

Then there are those who didn't.
They just
waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there is a
difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course.

I volunteered for the RAF. They told me that I couldn't join as aircrew
because my eyesight wasn't good enough. I offered to join as an engineer
officer and they told me to come back once I had my engineering degree:
but by then we'd had "Options for Change" and they'd frozen recruitment,
and I got a job designing and building their weapons instead.

I signed up for the part-time Army in the meantime, though it seems that
doesn't count either because you only recognise one regiment: I look
forward to seeing you explain to my cousin (PWRR, but was attached to
the Black Watch for Telic, got an unscheduled self-drive holiday in
Basra) that he's "not a real soldier" because he didn't go Para.


I signed up and served, and made myself ready to go: and a few years on
I signed up in a different capacity and am ready to march to the colours
again. I'm not really sure what more I'm supposed to do: start a war
just so I can fight in it, perchance?

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 3/2/04 1:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but
weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and
those who would refuse.

You have a a lot to answer for.

In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the
Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault
they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk


Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force,
the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers.

Art, I *work* with Royal Marines, Paras and members of other specialist
units. They accept my experience and trust my judgement in my fields of
expertise, just as I have complete faith in theirs.

Many of them have not seen combat, even when other members of their unit
have (assigned to other duties, in the wrong battalion, whatever).
Should we - for an example - denigrate the courage of 1 Para because
they weren't sent to the Falklands? Are they "less brave" than, for
example, the Blues and Royals or the Scots Guards, who despite not being
"Air Force, Marines or Paras" went and fought?

We thankfully don't have to do total wars these days: some regiments are
sent to a conflict, others have other missions to cover.

Then there are those who didn't.
They just
waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there
is a
difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course.

I volunteered for the RAF. They told me that I couldn't join as aircrew
because my eyesight wasn't good enough. I offered to join as an engineer
officer and they told me to come back once I had my engineering degree:
but by then we'd had "Options for Change" and they'd frozen recruitment,
and I got a job designing and building their weapons instead.

I signed up for the part-time Army in the meantime, though it seems that
doesn't count either because you only recognise one regiment: I look
forward to seeing you explain to my cousin (PWRR, but was attached to
the Black Watch for Telic, got an unscheduled self-drive holiday in
Basra) that he's "not a real soldier" because he didn't go Para.


I signed up and served, and made myself ready to go: and a few years on
I signed up in a different capacity and am ready to march to the colours
again. I'm not really sure what more I'm supposed to do: start a war
just so I can fight in it, perchance?

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?. We
will never know will we?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?.
We
will never know will we?

Art, it seems your dividing line between glory and those of a lesser caliber
is combat/no combat. i.e. being shot at counts. Everything else somewhat
less worthy.

You know as well as most reading this that military personnel don't get to
choose their war, or often even their job. No matter how many people
volunteer for the Green Berets, the military *still* needs supply troops,
bomb loaders, crew chiefs, etc, etc, etc.

Of the many thousands of bombs I loaded in my career, none was dropped in
anger. Not a one. Yet I served during several combat actions. Libya,
Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq. How did THAT happen? Why didn't I
'volunteer' for El Dorado Canyon, or Desert Storm? Because that's not the
way it works anymore. My mission was elsewhere. Why didn't the F-16 pilots
at Ramstein 'volunteer' for Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it
works anymore. They had their own mission with the 86th FW in Germany. Not
everyone gets to go, no matter how bad they want it.

What would you say to Willie the Wolfs' crew chief? Or the bomb loaders? Or
the supply troop that ensured you had good tires? Or the logistics officer
ensuring the entire 8th AF had fresh tires?

Would you call them a lesser caliber of men, simply because they were not
shot at?

No. You would shake their hand, buy them a beer, and thank them for helping
you in *your* mission. They had theirs, you had yours. At least, that's what
I hope you'd do.

Now please extend the same respect to all those others who did serve
honorably, volunteer or draftee, in war or in peace.

Pete