New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 5:55*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
If you add bank indicator (still allowed) you have all
you need for T&B.

To the best of my knowledge the only bank indicator allowed by SSA
contest rules is the pilot's view of the world outside the cockpit.
What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

Andy

On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-).

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:
On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-).

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

Eric - the issue is not whether or not you need a particular
instrument but whether, since they are going to be included in an
increasing number of multi-use instruments, these should be
prohibited. In nearly 2,000 hours of glider flying, I have only found
the need for a horizon on two occasions, but I was glad to have one!

Your argument could be used for parachutes too - I have never needed
or used mine.

Mike

On 2/10/2012 8:03 AM, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Feb 10, 5:54 am, wrote:
On Feb 10, 7:26 am, wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-).

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

Eric - the issue is not whether or not you need a particular
instrument but whether, since they are going to be included in an
increasing number of multi-use instruments, these should be
prohibited. In nearly 2,000 hours of glider flying, I have only found
the need for a horizon on two occasions, but I was glad to have one!

Your argument could be used for parachutes too - I have never needed
or used mine.

I'm not which Eric you are answering, but parachutes have been used a
few times in contests, but I'm not aware of any accidents that would
have been avoided in contests if a horizon had been installed. So,
pragmatically, requiring parachutes seems like a good idea.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:
On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-).

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

I have read the position released by the RC,
http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf ,
and am trying to understand how the process will work from a
competitors, RC chairperson and a SSA sanctioned competition score
keeper (I have scored contests the last couple of years and have
plans to do so in 2012).


The document reads:

2. By waiver, the RC may allow the installation of such a device if
the RC determines that the “artificial horizon” or “turn and bank”
capability can be effectively and verifiably disabled for the period
of the competition.
3. To obtain a waiver a competitor must:
a. Ensure that the device in the configuration to be used is submitted
to the RC for inspection well before the intended use (at least one
month). This must also include a statement of compliance from the
manufacturer.
b. Request and obtain the waiver from the RC
4. The RC will use the following criteria in determining whether a
specific device is eligible for waiver:
a. It must be obvious to the casual observer that the forbidden
capabilities are disabled or entirely absent when the device powers up
and when the disablement will expire.
b. It must not be possible to re-enable the forbidden capabilities
during the period of competition. Examples of re-enablement scenarios
would include:
i. Reloading firmware
ii. Changing device settings
iii. Performing any kind of hardware reset (e.g. removing backup
battery)
5. The procedure for using the device is expected to be:
a. The competitor with a waiver disables the capability at the
beginning of the contest
b. The competitor demonstrates to an appropriate contest official
(e.g. CD, scorer) that the disabling has been done.
c. After 14 days the disablement expires (i.e. daily checking of IGC
logs is not an acceptable process)

?? Does 3a mean that the competitor must submit the instrument from
their plane to the RC for inspection?
?? Not sure how 4a is to followed. Will each instrument that
receives a waiver be documented and that documentation be available to
all SSA members, CD's, and scorers?
?? How are CD's and scorers suppose to know how each instrument
works and the setup being shown to them is compliant?
?? Are the contest registration forms and/or checklists being
updated so that contest organizers and other personnel know to check
for waivers, similar to insurance forms?

I believe that advances in technology and instruments are great and
will greatly enhance our flying enjoyment and safety. I am concerned
and eager to understand how this procedure will affect the workload of
contest organizers and rules committee members.

Ron Gleason

On Feb 10, 1:49*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:

On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-).

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

I have read the position released by the RC,http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf,
and am trying to understand how the process will work from a
competitors, RC chairperson and a SSA sanctioned competition score
keeper (I have scored contests *the last couple of years and have
plans to do so in 2012).

The document reads:

2. By waiver, the RC may allow the installation of such a device if
the RC determines that the “artificial horizon” or “turn and bank”
capability can be effectively and verifiably disabled for the period
of the competition.
3. To obtain a waiver a competitor must:
a. Ensure that the device in the configuration to be used is submitted
to the RC for inspection well before the intended use (at least one
month). This must also include a statement of compliance from the
manufacturer.
b. Request and obtain the waiver from the RC
4. The RC will use the following criteria in determining whether a
specific device is eligible for waiver:
a. It must be obvious to the casual observer that the forbidden
capabilities are disabled or entirely absent when the device powers up
and when the disablement will expire.
b. It must not be possible to re-enable the forbidden capabilities
during the period of competition. Examples of re-enablement scenarios
would include:
i. Reloading firmware
ii. Changing device settings
iii. Performing any kind of hardware reset (e.g. removing backup
battery)
5. The procedure for using the device is expected to be:
a. The competitor with a waiver disables the capability at the
beginning of the contest
b. The competitor demonstrates to an appropriate contest official
(e.g. CD, scorer) that the disabling has been done.
c. After 14 days the disablement expires (i.e. daily checking of IGC
logs is not an acceptable process)

?? *Does 3a mean that the competitor must submit the instrument from
their plane to the RC for inspection?
?? *Not sure how 4a is to followed. *Will each instrument that
receives a waiver be documented and that documentation be available to
all *SSA members, CD's, and scorers?
?? *How are CD's and scorers suppose to know how each instrument
works and the setup being shown to them is compliant?
?? *Are the contest registration forms and/or checklists being
updated so that contest organizers and other personnel *know to check
for waivers, similar to insurance forms?

I believe that advances in technology and instruments are great and
will greatly enhance our flying enjoyment and safety. *I am concerned
and eager to understand how this procedure will affect the workload of
contest organizers and rules committee members.

Ron Gleason

Hi Ron
It is expected that manufacturer's will submit representative units so
that the RC can determine that they comply.
We fully expect a list of compliant devices to result. No we don't
know where that list will live.
A complying instrument will display the information required to
veriify on start up. A contest official observes once and it's done.
Much of how this is being handled is targeted toward not increasing
the score's workload. This is why saving compliance information on the
flight log was determined to not be acceptable.
No forms will need to change. It is up to the pilot, if he has one of
these, to demonstate compliance. The other option is a screw driver.
We understand that new stuff is coming and this is why this policy was
created to get ahead of it and give pilots and manufacturers some
reasonable way to comply with a long standing rule.
UH
RC Chair

On Feb 10, 12:13*pm, wrote:
On Feb 10, 1:49*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:









On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:

On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-)..

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

I have read the position released by the RC,http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf,
and am trying to understand how the process will work from a
competitors, RC chairperson and a SSA sanctioned competition score
keeper (I have scored contests *the last couple of years and have
plans to do so in 2012).

The document reads:

2. By waiver, the RC may allow the installation of such a device if
the RC determines that the “artificial horizon” or “turn and bank”
capability can be effectively and verifiably disabled for the period
of the competition.
3. To obtain a waiver a competitor must:
a. Ensure that the device in the configuration to be used is submitted
to the RC for inspection well before the intended use (at least one
month). This must also include a statement of compliance from the
manufacturer.
b. Request and obtain the waiver from the RC
4. The RC will use the following criteria in determining whether a
specific device is eligible for waiver:
a. It must be obvious to the casual observer that the forbidden
capabilities are disabled or entirely absent when the device powers up
and when the disablement will expire.
b. It must not be possible to re-enable the forbidden capabilities
during the period of competition. Examples of re-enablement scenarios
would include:
i. Reloading firmware
ii. Changing device settings
iii. Performing any kind of hardware reset (e.g. removing backup
battery)
5. The procedure for using the device is expected to be:
a. The competitor with a waiver disables the capability at the
beginning of the contest
b. The competitor demonstrates to an appropriate contest official
(e.g. CD, scorer) that the disabling has been done.
c. After 14 days the disablement expires (i.e. daily checking of IGC
logs is not an acceptable process)

?? *Does 3a mean that the competitor must submit the instrument from
their plane to the RC for inspection?
?? *Not sure how 4a is to followed. *Will each instrument that
receives a waiver be documented and that documentation be available to
all *SSA members, CD's, and scorers?
?? *How are CD's and scorers suppose to know how each instrument
works and the setup being shown to them is compliant?
?? *Are the contest registration forms and/or checklists being
updated so that contest organizers and other personnel *know to check
for waivers, similar to insurance forms?

I believe that advances in technology and instruments are great and
will greatly enhance our flying enjoyment and safety. *I am concerned
and eager to understand how this procedure will affect the workload of
contest organizers and rules committee members.

Ron Gleason

Hi Ron
It is expected that manufacturer's will submit representative units so
that the RC can determine that they comply.
We fully expect a list of compliant devices to result. No we don't
know where that list will live.
A complying instrument will display the information required to
veriify on start up. A contest official observes once and it's done.
Much of how this is being handled is targeted toward not increasing
the score's workload. This is why saving compliance information on the
flight log was determined to not be acceptable.
No forms will need to change. It is up to the pilot, if he has one of
these, to demonstate compliance. The other option is a screw driver.
We understand that new stuff is coming and this is why this policy was
created to get ahead of it and give pilots and manufacturers some
reasonable way to comply with a long standing rule.
UH
RC Chair

Thanks for the quick reply Hank.

I see the process and want to believe it to be simple.

I am envisioning the RC producing a document that shows the start up
screens, etc, of the instrument for visual reference for use by the CD
and/or scorer.

This process is analogous to the ENL verification for a motor
glider. yes it is up to the pilot but beating by the scorer and other
techniques are required for many folks to have it down prior to the
first day of competition.

Nice job and solution for getting in front of the wave!

Ron

On Feb 10, 11:13*am, wrote:
On Feb 10, 1:49*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:









On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:

On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-)..

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

I have read the position released by the RC,http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf,
and am trying to understand how the process will work from a
competitors, RC chairperson and a SSA sanctioned competition score
keeper (I have scored contests *the last couple of years and have
plans to do so in 2012).

The document reads:

2. By waiver, the RC may allow the installation of such a device if
the RC determines that the “artificial horizon” or “turn and bank”
capability can be effectively and verifiably disabled for the period
of the competition.
3. To obtain a waiver a competitor must:
a. Ensure that the device in the configuration to be used is submitted
to the RC for inspection well before the intended use (at least one
month). This must also include a statement of compliance from the
manufacturer.
b. Request and obtain the waiver from the RC
4. The RC will use the following criteria in determining whether a
specific device is eligible for waiver:
a. It must be obvious to the casual observer that the forbidden
capabilities are disabled or entirely absent when the device powers up
and when the disablement will expire.
b. It must not be possible to re-enable the forbidden capabilities
during the period of competition. Examples of re-enablement scenarios
would include:
i. Reloading firmware
ii. Changing device settings
iii. Performing any kind of hardware reset (e.g. removing backup
battery)
5. The procedure for using the device is expected to be:
a. The competitor with a waiver disables the capability at the
beginning of the contest
b. The competitor demonstrates to an appropriate contest official
(e.g. CD, scorer) that the disabling has been done.
c. After 14 days the disablement expires (i.e. daily checking of IGC
logs is not an acceptable process)

?? *Does 3a mean that the competitor must submit the instrument from
their plane to the RC for inspection?
?? *Not sure how 4a is to followed. *Will each instrument that
receives a waiver be documented and that documentation be available to
all *SSA members, CD's, and scorers?
?? *How are CD's and scorers suppose to know how each instrument
works and the setup being shown to them is compliant?
?? *Are the contest registration forms and/or checklists being
updated so that contest organizers and other personnel *know to check
for waivers, similar to insurance forms?

I believe that advances in technology and instruments are great and
will greatly enhance our flying enjoyment and safety. *I am concerned
and eager to understand how this procedure will affect the workload of
contest organizers and rules committee members.

Ron Gleason

Hi Ron
It is expected that manufacturer's will submit representative units so
that the RC can determine that they comply.
We fully expect a list of compliant devices to result. No we don't
know where that list will live.
A complying instrument will display the information required to
veriify on start up. A contest official observes once and it's done.
Much of how this is being handled is targeted toward not increasing
the score's workload. This is why saving compliance information on the
flight log was determined to not be acceptable.
No forms will need to change. It is up to the pilot, if he has one of
these, to demonstate compliance. The other option is a screw driver.
We understand that new stuff is coming and this is why this policy was
created to get ahead of it and give pilots and manufacturers some
reasonable way to comply with a long standing rule.
UH
RC Chair

From what I read and understand in the rules if I obtain a waiver, and
have my Tru-Trak inspected, and the on-off switch is "off" and perhaps
safetied with witness wire then perhaps I'm ok to fly a contest. Or
maybe I pull 2 screws and place a cat food lid in front of the
display.

I'm more than happy to demonstrate compliance by wiring my switch with
a disabling mechanism, but don't make me unscrew my panel, pull wires
and remove an instrument. It's sad that by default I would be
considered a potential cheater because I consider an AH a basic safety
need.

The other issue that Noel brings up is the LK8000 and that AH page. I
would like to think that on top of everything else, I would not need
to buy and learn another piece of soaring software just because there
is a AH page on my flight computer. I've made a few comparisons with
the Tru-Trak and the LK8000 AH, I would not rely on the LK8000, but if
I had nothing else and it meant giving that a try or ripping my wings
off I would at least try it. Maybe Paolo could add a button to "dis-
able" the page?

Here's a great way to stifle pilots who might be tempted to fly
competition................remove your turn and bank, or don't fly in
our competition.

Brad

On Feb 10, 11:13*am, wrote:
On Feb 10, 1:49*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:









On Feb 10, 5:54*am, T8 wrote:

On Feb 10, 7:26*am, Andy wrote:

What do you mean by "bank indicator (still allowed)" ?

That's his checkbook register. *After buying that fancy ASG-29, it's a
pretty small number and hence easy to read in the cockpit. *The fear
of damaging damaging such a valuable asset keeps him out of cloud :-)..

-T8 (slipping, one bubble off center)

I have read the position released by the RC,http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf,
and am trying to understand how the process will work from a
competitors, RC chairperson and a SSA sanctioned competition score
keeper (I have scored contests *the last couple of years and have
plans to do so in 2012).

The document reads:

2. By waiver, the RC may allow the installation of such a device if
the RC determines that the “artificial horizon” or “turn and bank”
capability can be effectively and verifiably disabled for the period
of the competition.
3. To obtain a waiver a competitor must:
a. Ensure that the device in the configuration to be used is submitted
to the RC for inspection well before the intended use (at least one
month). This must also include a statement of compliance from the
manufacturer.
b. Request and obtain the waiver from the RC
4. The RC will use the following criteria in determining whether a
specific device is eligible for waiver:
a. It must be obvious to the casual observer that the forbidden
capabilities are disabled or entirely absent when the device powers up
and when the disablement will expire.
b. It must not be possible to re-enable the forbidden capabilities
during the period of competition. Examples of re-enablement scenarios
would include:
i. Reloading firmware
ii. Changing device settings
iii. Performing any kind of hardware reset (e.g. removing backup
battery)
5. The procedure for using the device is expected to be:
a. The competitor with a waiver disables the capability at the
beginning of the contest
b. The competitor demonstrates to an appropriate contest official
(e.g. CD, scorer) that the disabling has been done.
c. After 14 days the disablement expires (i.e. daily checking of IGC
logs is not an acceptable process)

?? *Does 3a mean that the competitor must submit the instrument from
their plane to the RC for inspection?
?? *Not sure how 4a is to followed. *Will each instrument that
receives a waiver be documented and that documentation be available to
all *SSA members, CD's, and scorers?
?? *How are CD's and scorers suppose to know how each instrument
works and the setup being shown to them is compliant?
?? *Are the contest registration forms and/or checklists being
updated so that contest organizers and other personnel *know to check
for waivers, similar to insurance forms?

I believe that advances in technology and instruments are great and
will greatly enhance our flying enjoyment and safety. *I am concerned
and eager to understand how this procedure will affect the workload of
contest organizers and rules committee members.

Ron Gleason

Hi Ron
It is expected that manufacturer's will submit representative units so
that the RC can determine that they comply.
We fully expect a list of compliant devices to result. No we don't
know where that list will live.
A complying instrument will display the information required to
veriify on start up. A contest official observes once and it's done.
Much of how this is being handled is targeted toward not increasing
the score's workload. This is why saving compliance information on the
flight log was determined to not be acceptable.
No forms will need to change. It is up to the pilot, if he has one of
these, to demonstate compliance. The other option is a screw driver.
We understand that new stuff is coming and this is why this policy was
created to get ahead of it and give pilots and manufacturers some
reasonable way to comply with a long standing rule.

The iPhone 4 and 4S (along with the newest Android and Windows phones)
contain 3-axis gyroscope and accelerometer sensors, and that there are
already at least two "artificial horizon" applications in the App
store. Both appear to be rather poorly implemented, but there is
nothing inherently preventing someone from creating an effective (and
accurate) implementation using known sensor fusion techniques. This
can't be disabled, and even if the iPhone is inspected and determined
to be free of offending apps, the phone can simply be synced with a
laptop to reinstall in a matter of moments. I suspect there will be
some resistance to banning these phones...

Marc