GAO: Tactical Aircraft: Changing Conditions Drive Need for New F/A-22 Business Case"

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
.. .
Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
.. .
Kevin Brooks wrote:

snip

What the man said. BUFDRVR, pull out your copy of Boyne and look
up
"Advanced
Capability Radar" in the index. Boyne says the Hs got them first,
but
they were
backfit to the D, F and G.

Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it.

Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or
forgotten
them, or FAS may be wrong.

My point is that the sources all seem to differ, so making any concrete
assessment is a bit difficult as yet. From what I gather the C models
were
still flying operationally (versus the training birds) as late as the
mid-sixties; their ability to perform down in the weeds has not been
conclusively established.

Boyne's got a table compiled by the SAC historian, which shows C models
still in
service (don't know if they were used operationally) as late as '71.
There are
always D, E or F models also listed in the same wing covering at least the
same
time frame as the Cs (post '50s), so they may well have been used for
training.
The last Es seem to have toddled off to the Boneyard in 1978 (from
Castle), if
the '78 isn't a typo for '68, with all the other wings withdrawing them no
later
than 1970, and most being gone by 1968.

Baugher seems to indicate that at least one unit (99th BW) kept them in a
SIOP role until around 1969-70; he (and IAPR) note that a number of them
were indeed used by other units throught the sixties in a training role. He
indicates the E models were all gone by 1970, including those at Castle,
save for a single "NB-52E" that served in a flight test role until at least
1973. IAPR confirms that, but reading the IAPR accounts of each variant
would lead one to believe that the author may very well have used baugher as
his primary source.


FAS as a source is not
infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which
models
got it
and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A
radars
in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of
the
fleet,
which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time.

Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long,
as
our
ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just
entering
service.

In 1961 there were some 571 B-52's in service (
http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab7.asp ), and by the following year
that had climbed to some 673; I doubt that any major program such as the
addition of a TA radar was completed in a period of less than three or
four
years at best for a force of that size (just based upon the '61 size);
doing
it in two years would have required a modification rate of nearly one
aircraft per day, sevven days a week, fifty-two weeks a year.

Elsewhere in Boyne he states that the Es "were the first to use the new
low
altitude equipment which was then deemed necessary to elude the
ever-expanding
Soviet missile and radar network." However, it appears you are correct
about
the time it took to fit the fleet. See below.

snip

The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959
which is
when
the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab)
while
in low
altitude flight.

That is when a couple of sources indicate the *training* of B-52 crews
in
low level operations began; those same two sources indicate that the
modification work to the aircraft did not start until 1961. A site i ran
across had a story posted by a former BUFF crewmember from that era, and
all
he said was that they began to fly low-altitude work "in the early
sixties";
unless he was in one of the last crews to make that transition, then it
appears the high altitude work was still ongoing. There was also an
airframe
modification program initiated to strengthen the structure so that it
could
absorb the increasedfatigue loads of low altitude work--I have not seen
any
indication of when that effort was completed, either, or whether it ever
addressed either the C or E models.

FWIW, Boyne provides a table of major ($50million+) mods to the BUFF. Mod
1000
is titled "Low Level Capability," cost $313.2 million over FY 59-69,
applied to
C-H models, and was "to improve bomber penetration capability by flying at
500
feet altitude or below; Includes: Terrain Avoidance Radar (ACR), Improved
Radar
Altimeter, Increased Cooling Capacity, Equipment Mounting Provisions,
Secondary
Structural Improvements."

There was also Mod 951, High Stress I, II, II, "Strengthening of critical
structural areas," which applied to the B-G and cost $62.9 Mill over FY
62-64.


As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was
considered,
given
their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of
Hound
Dog
(which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed).

I never knew SAC was restricting its operations to night/adverse weather
:-)
. I have seen some photos of camo'd Hound Dog's, presumably from their
later
years in service.

snip

I was forgetting that Hound Dog didn't apply to the tall tails, so they'd
pretty
much have to be on the deck, or else come in late to bounce the rubble.

IAPR indicates that the tall tails did indeed carry the Hound Dog; the first
test firing from a B-52 was reportedly from the E model, and the same source
indicates some of the D models were even configured as Hound Dog carriers
late in their career. Another source indicates that, "By the end of 1959,
the Air Force had approved 29 B-52 squadrons to be equipped with Hound Dog
missiles." I doubt there were enough short-tail B-52's then in the works in
1959 to be designated (www.boeing.com/history/bna/hounddog.htm ). Another
source states, "...by August 1963 29 SAC wings were operational with the
AGM-28" (http://www.strategic-air-command.com...ched_Missiles/
agm-28_hound_dog_missile.htm ).

Brooks


Guy

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
.. .

snip

I was forgetting that Hound Dog didn't apply to the tall tails, so they'd
pretty
much have to be on the deck, or else come in late to bounce the rubble.

IAPR indicates that the tall tails did indeed carry the Hound Dog; the first
test firing from a B-52 was reportedly from the E model,

Agrees with the info I have, but I wasn't counting a test a/c.

and the same source
indicates some of the D models were even configured as Hound Dog carriers
late in their career.

Going by Boyne, he indicates it was just the G/H, but I'm in no position to say
either way.

Another source indicates that, "By the end of 1959,

the Air Force had approved 29 B-52 squadrons to be equipped with Hound Dog
missiles." I doubt there were enough short-tail B-52's then in the works in
1959 to be designated (www.boeing.com/history/bna/hounddog.htm ). Another
source states, "...by August 1963 29 SAC wings were operational with the
AGM-28" (http://www.strategic-air-command.com...ched_Missiles/
agm-28_hound_dog_missile.htm ).

It does seem highly unlikely that there were 29 wings of G/Hs. Boyne says that
peak inventory of AGM-28 was 593 weapons. At two per a/c, that would seem a bit
excessive for just the G/H fleet of 295 a/c, assuming that a certain number
wouldn't be serviceable/available at any time. Anyone got a photo of an
operational tall-tail with Hound Dog?

Guy

It does seem highly unlikely that there were 29 wings of G/Hs.

I've got a great book by Bob Dorr that actually lays out the disposition of the
BUFF fleet by various years. In 1970 there were 10 B-52G Wings (2nd, 97th,
42nd, 416th, 380th, 19th, 68th, 72nd, 320th & 456th) and 6 B-52H wings (379th,
410th, 449th, 17th, 319th & 5th). The rest of the forces were; 9.5 B-52D Wings
and half of an F Wing (seems one squadron at Castle still had B-52Fs in 1970).

As you can see from the numbers above, at least by 1970, there wasn't even 29
BUFF wings total.

The next earlier year looked at by Dorr is 1963. There are 2 x B-52B wings, 1 x
B-52C wing, 9 x B-52D wings, 5 x B-52E wings, 4 x B-52F wings, 10 x B-52G
wings, 6 x B-52H wings and 1 wing (Castle) with a squadron each of B-52Bs and
B-52Fs.

Thats 38 total wings. Obviously this predates even my birth, but I did not
think Hound Dog was that prevalent. If 29 of 38 wings had Hound Dog I would be
very surprised because I've met only 1 ol' BUFF crew dog (nice guy I met at the
Battle Creek Air Show) who had any Hound Dog experience.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
It does seem highly unlikely that there were 29 wings of G/Hs.

I've got a great book by Bob Dorr that actually lays out the disposition
of the
BUFF fleet by various years. In 1970 there were 10 B-52G Wings (2nd, 97th,
42nd, 416th, 380th, 19th, 68th, 72nd, 320th & 456th) and 6 B-52H wings
(379th,
410th, 449th, 17th, 319th & 5th). The rest of the forces were; 9.5 B-52D
Wings
and half of an F Wing (seems one squadron at Castle still had B-52Fs in
1970).

As you can see from the numbers above, at least by 1970, there wasn't even
29
BUFF wings total.

The next earlier year looked at by Dorr is 1963. There are 2 x B-52B
wings, 1 x
B-52C wing, 9 x B-52D wings, 5 x B-52E wings, 4 x B-52F wings, 10 x B-52G
wings, 6 x B-52H wings and 1 wing (Castle) with a squadron each of B-52Bs
and
B-52Fs.

Thats 38 total wings. Obviously this predates even my birth, but I did not
think Hound Dog was that prevalent. If 29 of 38 wings had Hound Dog I
would be
very surprised because I've met only 1 ol' BUFF crew dog (nice guy I met
at the
Battle Creek Air Show) who had any Hound Dog experience.

I believe a typo may be involved here--note that the fist quote indicated 29
*squadrons* were to receive the Hound Dog, and the second quote indicates
that as of 1963 29 *wings* had them. Two possibilities--a typo replaced
"squadrons" with wings in the second quote, or (perhaps more likely), only
one squadron per wing was tasked with Hound Dog delivery.

Brooks



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
It does seem highly unlikely that there were 29 wings of G/Hs.

I've got a great book by Bob Dorr that actually lays out the disposition
of the
BUFF fleet by various years. In 1970 there were 10 B-52G Wings (2nd, 97th,
42nd, 416th, 380th, 19th, 68th, 72nd, 320th & 456th) and 6 B-52H wings
(379th,
410th, 449th, 17th, 319th & 5th). The rest of the forces were; 9.5 B-52D
Wings
and half of an F Wing (seems one squadron at Castle still had B-52Fs in
1970).

As you can see from the numbers above, at least by 1970, there wasn't even
29
BUFF wings total.

The next earlier year looked at by Dorr is 1963. There are 2 x B-52B
wings, 1 x
B-52C wing, 9 x B-52D wings, 5 x B-52E wings, 4 x B-52F wings, 10 x B-52G
wings, 6 x B-52H wings and 1 wing (Castle) with a squadron each of B-52Bs
and
B-52Fs.

Thats 38 total wings. Obviously this predates even my birth, but I did not
think Hound Dog was that prevalent. If 29 of 38 wings had Hound Dog I
would be
very surprised because I've met only 1 ol' BUFF crew dog (nice guy I met
at the
Battle Creek Air Show) who had any Hound Dog experience.

The BUFF BN I know locally has Hound Dog experince.
Come to think of it, he never flew a short tail eithier.

The BUFF BN I know locally has Hound Dog experince.
Come to think of it, he never flew a short tail eithier.

Do yourself a favor, to his face, never refer to him as a "BN". He was a
*Radar* Navigator and he'll let you know that

The guy I met at the Battle Creek Airshow did not retire, so he had less than
20 years, but he said he flew G models his whole career (how ever long that
was?).


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

FWIW one of my squadron mates flying a 104A out of Patrick AFB
intercepted and shot down a Hound Dog using an AIM9B. And my
cross-the-street neighbor at Homestead was one of the test RNs on the
Hound Dog.
Walt BJ

"WaltBJ" wrote in message
om...
FWIW one of my squadron mates flying a 104A out of Patrick AFB
intercepted and shot down a Hound Dog using an AIM9B. And my
cross-the-street neighbor at Homestead was one of the test RNs on the
Hound Dog.
Walt BJ

Cool.
What was the nature of the event, Walt? Was this an example of
expending old munitions in a useful manner (gunnery practice)
and/or an active training launch for a B-52 crew?

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
The BUFF BN I know locally has Hound Dog experince.
Come to think of it, he never flew a short tail eithier.

Do yourself a favor, to his face, never refer to him as a "BN". He was a
*Radar* Navigator and he'll let you know that

Nope, I have referred to his position that way with out any correction.
His more interesting tales are about the school that didn't exist anyway.

The guy I met at the Battle Creek Airshow did not retire, so he had less
than
20 years, but he said he flew G models his whole career (how ever long
that
was?).

Do yourself a favor, to his face, never refer to him as a "BN". He was a
*Radar* Navigator and he'll let you know that

Nope, I have referred to his position that way with out any correction.
His more interesting tales are about the school that didn't exist anyway.


What sort of school?


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)