Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam

It has nothing to do with any of that. The more missions you fly the worse
the
odds of survival. How commited you are is irrelevant.

Arthur Kramer

I'm not sure that was borne out by experience in later wars, Art. In mine it
was the guys with low time, low experience who got shot down the most. More
experience worked in your favor. A shootdown went from a moderate statiistical
probability to a random event. In our first in-theater we were told repeatedly
that if we were going to get shot down, it most likely be on the the first 15
missions. I am reminded of guys like Paul Tibbets and Bob Montgomery who flew
multiple tours in multiple airplanes in WWII. I wou ld have to call the
committment.

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/14/2004 8:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

It has nothing to do with any of that. The more missions you fly the worse
the
odds of survival. How commited you are is irrelevant.

Arthur Kramer

I'm not sure that was borne out by experience in later wars, Art. In mine it
was the guys with low time, low experience who got shot down the most. More
experience worked in your favor. A shootdown went from a moderate
statiistical
probability to a random event. In our first in-theater we were told
repeatedly
that if we were going to get shot down, it most likely be on the the first 15
missions. I am reminded of guys like Paul Tibbets and Bob Montgomery who
flew
multiple tours in multiple airplanes in WWII. I wou ld have to call the
committment.


Flak is not related to commitment. It is statistical happenstance that
controlled the skies over Germany.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Flak is not related to commitment. It is statistical happenstance that
controlled the skies over Germany.


Arthur Kramer

Maybe for WWII. Are you saying that it took no commitment to fly over that
"statistical happenstance that controlled the skies over Germany"?.

You've totally lost me here. Was I said was that Kerry didn't seem
particularly committed to his crew and his oath to serve since he took an
"early out" from Vietnam. Possibly Bush wasn't as committed to serve as some
in that era though I am not sure his actions prove it one way or another, given
that there were others in similar circumstances in the same role as his who
didn't serve in Vietnam either.

Are you saying Kerry told his "early out" because his concern over being
wounded overrode his sense of duty and committment?

Not that it really matters because what should matter is who would best lead
the country not so much as 35 year old history. I am sorry that I just see a
pattern with Kerry that tells me that he is more concerned for himself and his
own interests than the country's. You would probably argue the same thing
about Bush. That is what the election is all about, or should be, not who
stole the election. Gire lost according to the laws of the land and no amount
of grousing is going to change that.

Steve

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/14/2004 10:13 AM Pacific

Flak is not related to commitment. It is statistical happenstance that
controlled the skies over Germany.


Arthur Kramer

Maybe for WWII. Are you saying that it took no commitment to fly over that
"statistical happenstance that controlled the skies over Germany"?.


Not at all. If you were highly commited (eager beaver) you had no better
chance of survival than someone who was less eager. The flak didn't care who it
killed. It was an equal opportunity executioner.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Not at all. If you were highly commited (eager beaver) you had no better
chance of survival than someone who was less eager. The flak didn't care who
it
killed. It was an equal opportunity executioner.


Arthur Kramer

I don't relate being an eager beaver to being committed. That's not
committment, its stupidity ina combat environment..

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/14/2004 10:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Not at all. If you were highly commited (eager beaver) you had no better
chance of survival than someone who was less eager. The flak didn't care who
it
killed. It was an equal opportunity executioner.


Arthur Kramer

I don't relate being an eager beaver to being committed. That's not
committment, its stupidity ina combat environment..



Well I was an eager beaver totally commited to the job to be done. So I guess I
was stupid.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well I was an eager beaver totally commited to the job to be done. So I guess
I
was stupid.



Arthur Krame

You made it. You must have been a smart committed eager beaver rather than a
dumb one. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Was I said was that Kerry didn't seem
particularly committed to his crew and his oath to serve since he took an
"early out" from Vietnam.

That early out took being wounded three times.

Kerry had to volunteer three times to get that early out. He had to volunteer
for the Navy. He had to volunteer for Viet Nam. And he had to volunteer for
the Swift Boats.

I wonder if his experience in the Swift Boats didn't sour him on the war. If
he opted out of being killed for a mistake, I'd say it would be hard to gainsay
him.

He had an honorable out and he took it.

Then, even more to his credit, he protested the war and helped expose some of
the abuses. The more I hear about Kerry, the more I like him.

He's done everything right in his campaign so far. Some of the pundits on TV
yesterday were saying it was Kerry's election to lose. God willing, Bush will
be ejected from the seat he stole.

What you are doing is parroting the Republican Party attack machine. They've
had the gall to attack Senator Kerry when their candidate cannot or will not
account for two years of his own service.

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote

The more I hear about Kerry, the more I like him.

Good for you. We all need to know what you think, because you
are a special person.

Not that it really matters because what should matter is who would best lead
the country not so much as 35 year old history.

Bush has been a disastrous failure as president.

If Bush wins in November, this country will become even more of a police state.

If Bush wins in November our national flag and national honor will continue to
trail in the dust.

If Bush wins in November we will still be hated and mistrusted around the
world.

If Bush wins in November, we will be less safe than we are now.

If Bush wins in November, he'll still be sucking money out of the middle class
to save the bank rolls of the rich and super rich.

If Bush wins in November our grotesquesly maladroit foreign policies will
continue.

If Bush wins in November, Jeb will be right behind him.

Those ******* Republicans have got to go.



Walt