Blackbird v. Mig-25

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:36:54 +0300, "Vello" wrote:


"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
...

The MiG was intended to be flown by normal service pilots, use normal
fuels and systems, and be maintained by 20 year old conscripts in
Siberia. Making an airplane that can do all those things wasn't a
trivial acheivement.

Another way to look at it is that the MiG-25 has pretty much the
ultimate perforance that can be acheived with a normal shape, and
fairly normal materials. (Stainless Steel, for the most part)
If you're going to go faster and higher, you need to start making
exotic airplanes like the SR-71.

Thank you all for making things clear! One more strange thing: russians have
a lot of titanium, they even built submarine hulls from that - strange
airframe builders in SU find so little use for titanium. Do anybody know the
reason?
whats really funnny is that the Titanium that was used to build the
SR-71 was exported from the then Soviet Union.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

little use for titanium. Do anybody know the
reason?
whats really funnny is that the Titanium that was used to build the
SR-71 was exported from the then Soviet Union.

Russia has 75% of the world's supply of titanuim ore. We have been buying
processed TI "sponge" from them since the 60s in spite of the cold war.

"w.a. manning" wrote in message
om...
$$$

despite it's relative abundance, titanium is very difficult (and thus
costly) to manufacture and machine.

Exactly. The reason the Soviets used it is because the Ministry of Defense
got everything it wanted in the 2 and 5-year plans. Money was literally no
object for them.

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"w.a. manning" wrote in message
om...
$$$

despite it's relative abundance, titanium is very difficult (and thus
costly) to manufacture and machine.

Exactly. The reason the Soviets used it is because the Ministry of
Defense
got everything it wanted in the 2 and 5-year plans. Money was literally
no
object for them.

But the point was that they did NOT use it, at least in aircraft production,
back when the US was already beginning to do so. And IIRC, that was largely
because they had not yet developed the ability to work with it as we did
(which is why stainless steel was instead used more by the USSR instead of
titanium).

Brooks

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote in message
...
little use for titanium. Do anybody know the
reason?
whats really funnny is that the Titanium that was used to build the
SR-71 was exported from the then Soviet Union.

Russia has 75% of the world's supply of titanuim ore. We have been buying
processed TI "sponge" from them since the 60s in spite of the cold war.


One anecdotical memory from soviet time (i live in Estonia). Hard to belive,
but it is true. There was a hughe soviet military plant in Tallinn,
Dvigatel. Part of it was targeted on titanium structures. This times Kavor
Works in Tallinn was the sole distributor of formula racing cars in Soviet
Bloc. Cars went out of works with steel shafts etc parts, but teams taking
racing seriously get the same stuff in titanium from Dvigatel for relatively
small bribe.

Best,
Vello

In article ,
(John S. Shinal) wrote:

"Vello" wrote:

Thank you all for making things clear! One more strange thing: russians have
a lot of titanium, they even built submarine hulls from that - strange
airframe builders in SU find so little use for titanium. Do anybody know the
reason?

Yes, the earlier varieties of Ti were extremely difficult to
handle and work. Minor contamination with Chlorinated solvents can
lead to rapid and catastrophic corrosion, for example. Many
specialized techniques had to be developed by Lockheed (and presumably
were similarly developed later for the Alfa subs), before Titanium
fabrication could be used for so much of the aircraft.

Not to mention Cadmium...

The specific strength of Aluminum still makes it a better choice for
aircraft except where high temperatures are involved, or intimate
contact with carbon composites is necessary.

You will notice that despite the dropping in price of Titanium,
and the now-well-understood manufacturing methods, Ti has not
supplanted Al in the aircraft industry.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

MiG-25 has a huge water/alcohol reservoir that posed a quite challenge to
airbase commanders; the stuff was very..hm...potable. I think that Belyakov
(a head of MiG OKB) got a sort of "petition" from pilot and maintenance
gyus' wives about this, to which he answered something like "If it was
needed to fly our planes by the use of French Cognac, we would do it!". To
illustrate the proportions of this problem, when the plumbing of the filled
reservoir didn't produce effects (since the witty personell would drink it
after the flight), HQ ordered that MiG-25 pilots have to DUMP all
water/alcohol mixture before touchdown!

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA


Vello wrote in message ...

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote in message
...
little use for titanium. Do anybody know the
reason?
whats really funnny is that the Titanium that was used to build the
SR-71 was exported from the then Soviet Union.

Russia has 75% of the world's supply of titanuim ore. We have been
buying
processed TI "sponge" from them since the 60s in spite of the cold war.


One anecdotical memory from soviet time (i live in Estonia). Hard to
belive,
but it is true. There was a hughe soviet military plant in Tallinn,
Dvigatel. Part of it was targeted on titanium structures. This times Kavor
Works in Tallinn was the sole distributor of formula racing cars in Soviet
Bloc. Cars went out of works with steel shafts etc parts, but teams taking
racing seriously get the same stuff in titanium from Dvigatel for
relatively
small bribe.

Best,
Vello

in article , Vello Kala at wrote
on 8/16/04 13:19:

Aircraft Speed Altitude Mach Number
SR-71 Blackbird 2,275 mph
(3,660 km/h) 80,000 ft
(24,385 m) Mach 3.35
MiG-25 2,110 mph
(3,390 km/h) 42,650 ft
(13,000 m) Mach 3.2


This data is from Aerospaceweb. Question: SR-71 looks like alien plane, have
very special design (incl tanks what start to keep fuel on flight only)etc
etc. Mig-25 looks as pretty usual plane. But difference in speeds is
relative minor, expecially if to look at what altitude it is reached. How it
is possible? Do anybody have more data? Say, about SR-71 performance at 40
000 feet?


Weren't these aircraft designed for different purposes in mind so direct
comparisons are meaningless. The SR-71 is a high altitude recon. platform
as wasn't the Mig 25 a high speed interceptor which needed high speed dash
capability and not long endurance?

Ed

"Nele VII" wrote in message
...
MiG-25 has a huge water/alcohol reservoir that posed a quite challenge to
airbase commanders; the stuff was very..hm...potable. I think that
Belyakov
(a head of MiG OKB) got a sort of "petition" from pilot and maintenance
gyus' wives about this, to which he answered something like "If it was
needed to fly our planes by the use of French Cognac, we would do it!". To
illustrate the proportions of this problem, when the plumbing of the
filled
reservoir didn't produce effects (since the witty personell would drink it
after the flight), HQ ordered that MiG-25 pilots have to DUMP all
water/alcohol mixture before touchdown!

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

It may be true. One friend of mine was in mid-range missile unit when in
army, by his memories one component of fuel was potable at least for part of
soldiers, so it was regular fight between high-range officers wishing to
keep unit ready to act and soldiers wanting to have fun...

"Vello" writes:



Thank you all for making things clear! One more strange thing: russians have
a lot of titanium, they even built submarine hulls from that - strange
airframe builders in SU find so little use for titanium. Do anybody know the
reason?

Trivia: where did Skunk Works get their titanium?

From the USSR. The Agency set up a cover in some
third country & bought it from them.

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