Verifying flap retraction

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
found out.

--

Roger Long



"Ray" wrote in message
...
What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left side of
the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
still
go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
every
time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is there
any audible indication?

Thanks,
- Ray

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps
go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and
go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety
as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

I think the question might have been:

Does the flap position indicator move even if you have a flap motor (or
whatever) failure resulting in no movement by the flaps?




"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
found out.

--

Roger Long



"Ray" wrote in message
...
What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left side
of
the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
still
go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
every
time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is
there
any audible indication?

Thanks,
- Ray

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps
go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and
go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety
as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

There is a second pointer on the post 1976 Cessna selectors which follows
the lever you move. It is actuated by a push pull cable attached to the
flap cables. It's hard to envision any way it could move with out the flaps
moving. The cables would need to have broken in which case all the flapping
and banging would probably alert you the fact that you had a much bigger
problem.

--

Roger Long



"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
I think the question might have been:

Does the flap position indicator move even if you have a flap motor (or
whatever) failure resulting in no movement by the flaps?




"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my
friend
found out.

--

Roger Long



"Ray" wrote in message
...
What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left
side
of
the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
still
go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
every
time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is
there
any audible indication?

Thanks,
- Ray

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself
climbing
out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps
go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and
go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety
as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

Are you sure the indicator will move if the flaps are not moving? On
the 206 that indicator is driven by a cable off the flaps and only moves
if the flaps are moving.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

One of us got this backwards

What I was saying is: The pointer bar is a reliable indicator that the flaps
are moving. Unless the very lightly loaded follow up cable snaps, it is
extremely unlikely that the pointer could move without the flaps moving.
The pointer is directly connected to the flap cables.

--

Roger Long



"Dale" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

Are you sure the indicator will move if the flaps are not moving? On
the 206 that indicator is driven by a cable off the flaps and only moves
if the flaps are moving.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:21:42 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
found out.

This wasn't taught to me, but since normal takeoff in a Cessna 172 is
with flaps up, I thought it would be a good idea to verify that the
flaps were in fact up before powering up for the "go" part of the
touch and go. So I do that every time: Land, or "arrive" on the
runway, snap the flaps switch to up saying "flaps up" in my mind and
sometimes out loud, then verify that they are both moving up and power
up when they get stowed.

Corky Scott

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
found out.

This wasn't taught to me, but since normal takeoff in a Cessna 172 is
with flaps up, I thought it would be a good idea to verify that the
flaps were in fact up before powering up for the "go" part of the
touch and go. So I do that every time: Land, or "arrive" on the
runway, snap the flaps switch to up saying "flaps up" in my mind and
sometimes out loud, then verify that they are both moving up and power
up when they get stowed.

Corky Scott

So what do you guys do in a 172, going into a short field, and having to abort
when you're in the flare? Consider a deer in the runway, or something like
that, that makes a go round the attractive choice? Will the airplane climb at a
couple of hundred feet a minute with 30 degree flaps? If it does, why are you
concerned about verifying flap retraction? Doesn't attitude, rate of climb,
that sort of thing, tell you everything you need to know to fly the miss? The
question I'm not asking very well is, how does knowing the flaps are not going
up change anything you're doing as you throttle up and go to best angle or rate
of climb airspeed? This is not trolling, I'm trying to understand the issue
better.

As a side note, the old Mooney Rangers had manual gear retraction, a great big
Johnson bar between the seats. The trick was, after takeoff, to retract the
gear with a little forward pressure on the yoke -- they'd suck right up, at the
cost a few hundred feet a minute of climb rate for 5 seconds or so. If you ever
watched a Ranger take off and wobble all over the runway heading, you could be
sure the pilot was stuggling with that damned bar, it felt like a 100 pound
curl if it wasn't done right.

Also, gear up landings were very rare, that great big thing was right there
against the panel, and besides, if your arm didn't hurt or your knuckles
weren't bleeding, the gear was probably still up.

Those airplanes had hydrolic flaps, you pumped them down, if I recall
correctly, and they 'bled' up smoothly.

Rangers also got carb ice in an instant. I seem to have a memory of the egt
right on the yoke, and that was a great indicator of icing. But I've other
memories of the clock being there.

Getting old does things to my memory. Someone will probably be telling me they
didn't have hyrdolic flaps or something.

..

I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

BT

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

About 1999 according to my extremely limited survey of one student pilot.

--

Roger Long



"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:OPwUc.101556$xk.10937@fed1read01...
I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

BT

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, BTIZ wrote:

I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

'They' haven't, at least as of 2002 at my (Canadian) flying club. Shoulder
check one side in flight, and when you're putting the flaps back up after
engine start, check *both* sides to make sure they're moving in synch.

Brian.


BT

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long