Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Interesting discussion. I recall an anecdote I heard from a EB29E pilot,
she described the evening after flight discussions at a well known
Namibian site.
She said "the glider pilots sat around after dinner and discussed their
flights, the motor glider pilots sat around and discussed engines".
Says it all really!
Dave W



At 17:12 14 October 2020, jfitch wrote:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite
small=
.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the
handi=
caps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers
are
f=
aster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26
will do
78=
, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3
will
=
arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the
LS8. That
i=
s a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7
minute=
s will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill.
If=
the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be
men=
tally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be
wit=
hin Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft
the=
difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not
aerody=
namic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years
ago. There
=
has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles.
If
you=
are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you,
th=
en by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard
to
=
find the value proposition.=20

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:=20
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not
surpris=
e me as I don=E2=80=99t think you can=E2=80=99t find much
cheaper for any
n=
ew motorglider?=20
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform
as
we=
ll as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed
as a
=
club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you
can
=
expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it
will=
not perform as well?=20
I wonder why they don=E2=80=99t offer the same option in the
33?=20
I would like to hear thoughts on it.=20
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of
it
=
is enjoying the =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and adventure aspect of
pure
gliders=
, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure
glider=
s worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity,
maintainace and
=
extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the
most
t=
o me, but I haven=E2=80=99t found the silver lining I am looking for
so
far=
..=20
=20
Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance
differences=
between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or
knot
fa=
ster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are
talking
a=
bout gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the
time=
few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better
and
=
81.3 knot "speed range" than other?=20
=20
If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such
as
V3=
, JS3 or AS33.

On Wednesday, 14 October 2020 at 19:15:07 UTC+1, Dave Walsh wrote:
Interesting discussion. I recall an anecdote I heard from a EB29E pilot,
she described the evening after flight discussions at a well known
Namibian site.
She said "the glider pilots sat around after dinner and discussed their
flights, the motor glider pilots sat around and discussed engines".
Says it all really!
Dave W
At 17:12 14 October 2020, jfitch wrote:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite
small=
.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the
handi=
caps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers
are
f=
aster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26
will do
78=
, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3
will
=
arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the
LS8. That
i=
s a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7
minute=
s will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill.
If=
the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be
men=
tally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be
wit=
hin Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft
the=
difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not
aerody=
namic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years
ago. There
=
has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles.
If
you=
are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you,
th=
en by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard
to
=
find the value proposition.=20

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:=20
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not
surpris=
e me as I don=E2=80=99t think you can=E2=80=99t find much
cheaper for any
n=
ew motorglider?=20
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform
as
we=
ll as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed
as a
=
club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you
can
=
expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it
will=
not perform as well?=20
I wonder why they don=E2=80=99t offer the same option in the
33?=20
I would like to hear thoughts on it.=20
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of
it
=
is enjoying the =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and adventure aspect of
pure
gliders=
, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure
glider=
s worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity,
maintainace and
=
extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the
most
t=
o me, but I haven=E2=80=99t found the silver lining I am looking for
so
far=
..=20
=20
Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance
differences=
between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or
knot
fa=
ster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are
talking
a=
bout gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the
time=
few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better
and
=
81.3 knot "speed range" than other?=20
=20
If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such
as
V3=
, JS3 or AS33.


Might have been a boring evening - I thought all the gliding in Namibia was with seasonally imported self-launchers!

Maybe it says something about Namibia flying, but it says nothing about the Parowan motorglider
event I've been going to for over 10 years. We discuss the flights, rarely the motors. Ditto
for when I fly at Ely following the Parowan event.

Seriously, the motors work very well most of the time, and there is little reason to discuss
them at dinner! Use it for 5-10 minutes to launch, put it away and fly. There is more
discussion about the towed gliders landing out and needing retrieves than engines: do they need
a towplane, who will drive the trailer to them, etc.

Eric

Dave Walsh wrote on 10/14/2020 11:03 AM:
Interesting discussion. I recall an anecdote I heard from a EB29E pilot,
she described the evening after flight discussions at a well known
Namibian site.
She said "the glider pilots sat around after dinner and discussed their
flights, the motor glider pilots sat around and discussed engines".
Says it all really!
Dave W



At 17:12 14 October 2020, jfitch wrote:
The difference between gliders designed in the last 20 years is quite
small=
.. Some of the difference is explainable by wing loading. Here are the
handi=
caps used in the US for a sample of gliders (in the US, lower numbers
are
f=
aster):

JS3 - 0.83
ASH31-18 - 0.835
V3 - 0.84
ASG29-18 - 0.845
V2b-18 - 0.85
ASH26 - 0.855
LS6c-18 - 0.868
ASW27 - 0.878
LS8-18. - 0.88
Vb16.6 - 0.883

That means that on an 80 knot average day for the JS3, the ASH26
will do
78=
, and an LS8-18 75 knots. Put another way in a 4 hours flight the JS3
will
=
arrive 7 minutes ahead of the ASH26 and 14 minutes ahead of the
LS8. That
i=
s a lot of time in a race, but for pleasure flying nearly nothing. 7
minute=
s will be lost or gained many times in a 4 hour flight by luck or skill.
If=
the 26 is leaching the JS3 it will be slowly left behind (which may be
men=
tally disheartening, even if the difference is small) but will still be
wit=
hin Flarm range by the end of the day. If the S3 is loaded to 12 lbs/ft
the=
difference is much greater - but primarily due to wing loading, not
aerody=
namic design. The science was pretty far advanced even 20 years
ago. There
=
has been more gained by increasing wing loadings than wing profiles.
If
you=
are racing at top levels, or the money is of little consequence to you,
th=
en by all means the newest gliders are faster. For the rest of us, hard
to
=
find the value proposition.=20

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 1:02:34 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 20:40:52 UTC+3, Ramy wrote:=20
The price tag of close to 200K for a new self launcher does not
surpris=
e me as I don=E2=80=99t think you can=E2=80=99t find much
cheaper for any
n=
ew motorglider?=20
What surprises me is the expectation that the 34 will not perform
as
we=
ll as the top standard class such as LS8 and Discus 2 and is marketed
as a
=
club glider. After all the claim of 48:1 glide ratio is as high as you
can
=
expect from a non flap ship, which is not bad. So why do you expect it
will=
not perform as well?=20
I wonder why they don=E2=80=99t offer the same option in the
33?=20
I would like to hear thoughts on it.=20
As for why I did not switch to a motorglider myself so far, part of
it
=
is enjoying the =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and adventure aspect of
pure
gliders=
, part is that in the places I fly and with the support I have, pure
glider=
s worked well for me, part is shying away from complexity,
maintainace and
=
extra cost. But I am getting older, and electric solution appeal the
most
t=
o me, but I haven=E2=80=99t found the silver lining I am looking for
so
far=
..=20
=20
Ramy
To be totally honest, pilots who contemplate over performance
differences=
between LS8-18, D2c and AS34 are not going to fly a mile longer or
knot
fa=
ster with any of these types, or with LS4 for that matter. We are
talking
a=
bout gliders that are sold to sunday afternoon pilots doing 99% of the
time=
few hour pleasure flights. Who cares if one of these is 0.001% better
and
=
81.3 knot "speed range" than other?=20
=20
If you want a glider that goes, you need to look at 18m racers such
as
V3=
, JS3 or AS33.




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 8:55:27 PM UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Maybe it says something about Namibia flying, but it says nothing about the Parowan motorglider
event I've been going to for over 10 years. We discuss the flights, rarely the motors. Ditto
for when I fly at Ely following the Parowan event.

I remember arriving at Parowan for a contest immediately after the motorglider meet there and found a bunch of them on the apron working on engines. I distinctly remember someone welding a silencer together and another rebuilding a carburetor. Eric probably missed this because he was busy flying!

Mike

Mike the Strike wrote on 10/16/2020 3:03 AM:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 8:55:27 PM UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Maybe it says something about Namibia flying, but it says nothing about the Parowan motorglider
event I've been going to for over 10 years. We discuss the flights, rarely the motors. Ditto
for when I fly at Ely following the Parowan event.

I remember arriving at Parowan for a contest immediately after the motorglider meet there and found a bunch of them on the apron working on engines. I distinctly remember someone welding a silencer together and another rebuilding a carburetor. Eric probably missed this because he was busy flying!

Mike

They are not maintenance free, and no one suggests that. The remark I countered was the one
suggesting we talked about motors more than the flying. Had you been there a few days before,
you would have noticed that, and enjoyed the stories.

We (ASA - Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association) always have a towplane at our Parowan event.
It serves the sustainer motorgliders that can not self-launch, and 8 or so "gravity gliders"
that we invite to help support the towplane (and to enjoy their company, of course!). Often,
our biggest issue for event has been getting the towplane and pilot for the event. So,
ironically, a lot of the ASA board chatter is about towplanes! But not at dinner...

We (ASA - Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association) always have a towplane at our Parowan event.

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but self launch motor gliders often have a release.
So should the motor have some issue and the tow plane is around, you can get a tow so as not to miss out on good conditions.
I wouldn't get a motorglider without a release. Not a bad idea to remain current on aerotow anyways.

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 11:31:39 AM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
We (ASA - Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association) always have a towplane at our Parowan event.

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but self launch motor gliders often have a release.
So should the motor have some issue and the tow plane is around, you can get a tow so as not to miss out on good conditions.
I wouldn't get a motorglider without a release. Not a bad idea to remain current on aerotow anyways.


Just curious: what is 'current on aerotow'? Last time I had a long layoff from gliding (2 years due to business) I found no difficulty in aerotowing.

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 7:43:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:

Just curious: what is 'current on aerotow'? Last time I had a long layoff from gliding (2 years due to business) I found no difficulty in aerotowing.



I had a 30 year layoff from gliding because of family and work obligations.

It took me several flights to relearn how to fly a glider on tow. I was up front with my instructors and they just treated me like a new student. I also spent a lot of time reading the latest instruction manuals, especially the new airspace regulations.

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 6:03:20 AM UTC-4, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 8:55:27 PM UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Maybe it says something about Namibia flying, but it says nothing about the Parowan motorglider
event I've been going to for over 10 years. We discuss the flights, rarely the motors. Ditto
for when I fly at Ely following the Parowan event.

I remember arriving at Parowan for a contest immediately after the motorglider meet there and found a bunch of them on the apron working on engines. I distinctly remember someone welding a silencer together and another rebuilding a carburetor. Eric probably missed this because he was busy flying!

Mike

7 years flying ASH motor gliders and never had any breakdown!

Keep checking the fan belt - which is not very accessible (or simple to tension or replace). The ASH rotary is vulnerable to potentially serious and very expensive internal damage if the fan belt fails or falls off. In that case internal rotor air cooling stops, the engine rapidly overheats and also the rotor lubrication is compromised. The only in-flight indication is the rotor air temperature reading or alarm. I got it shut down quickly enough so that, although Schleicher said there would definitely be internal damage estimated at up to 20,000 euros + tax, I actually got lucky.

There are DIY monitoring solutions on the ASH26e support group.