Engine failure on final

Blueskies wrote:
Hilton wrote:
Ron Garret wrote:

The discussion about cutting power on final reminded me of something
I've been puzzled about for some time now.

If you fly final with some amount of power (which I gather most people
do -- I always have) that seems to guarantee that if you lose your
engine on final you will land short, and there's pretty much nothing
you
can do about it. Is that true? Or have I missed something? What
should you do if you lose your engine just after turning base to final?

Is that true? Have you missed something? Yes, lots!

0. Airspeed! Best place to land! (Rmember ABC)
1. Raise flaps
2. Prop low RPM
3. Raise gear
4. Then quickly run through obvious engine stuff - don't forget to pump
the
primer

Of course, 1-4 apply if you think you're not going to make a runway.

Hilton

Also, lower nose if necessary to get best glide speed...

That's the most important thing - that's why I listed it first.

Since you brought up the aircraft's attitude, you'll probably find that
you'll need to raise the nose, not lower it during the entire sequence.
Why? Because you'll probably be close the Vbg and possibly above it (I tend
to keep my speed up and slow down towards the end), but most importantly,
you need to pitch up to 'counteract' the raising the flaps; i.e. raising the
flaps lowers the Cl, so increase the attitude to increase the Cl to its
starting value - that way you don't get that 'pilot-is-a-passenger' sinking
feeling - same goes for climb-out when using flaps for take-off.

Hilton

george wrote:
Now hang on. The types of aircraft most of us fly will never have a
'windmilling' prop.
The engine quits the prop stops !
and an idling engine will add to the 'gliding' distance

Nope. Just to add to what Dave said: Let's assume you're flying along and
the engine starts shaking violently because part of you prop 'departed'.
You pull back the throttle and mixture immediately and 'kill' the engine - I
bet the prop will keep turning. Is this bad? Damn right, the engine is
about to shake itself off. So what do you do? Pitch up - get as close to
stall speed as possible to stop the prop - ASAP!!!

If anyone has seen Dave Morss' video from his Reno Race, you'll know what I
mean.

Hilton

In article .com,
"george" wrote:

Now hang on. The types of aircraft most of us fly will never have a
'windmilling' prop.
The engine quits the prop stops !
and an idling engine will add to the 'gliding' distance


Oh really. With the engine failures I've had in Cessna's the prop
continued to turn until I was in the flare or on the runway.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 at 11:28:26 in message
, Klein
wrote:

Working it the other way, for a 3 degree glideslope, at 500 ft you'd
still be 1.57 nm from the end of the runway. Unless you're flying a
glider, you need power to hold a 3 degree glideslope.

Correct. To hold a 3 degree slope at a steady speed requires an
effective Lift/Drag ratio of about 19. London City Airport I believe
has a standard glide slope of 8 or 9 degrees which would mean Lift/Drag
ratios of 7 to 6.4. Most light aircraft can manage a steeper approach
than 3 degrees I assume? Winds have a dramatic effect on these figures.

9 degrees would mean 0.52 nm at 500 ft

Anyone able to quote 'glide' angle at idle for various types, with and
without flaps or gear?
--
David CL Francis

Dan

Let me use your posting to hang some data on )

In the 'old' days pilots were taught to put throttle to idle opposite
the numbers on down wind. You then made a power off pattern to runway.
You of course cleared the engine a couple of times on base and turning
final.

In the 70's, while I was instructing, I was advised by an FAA rep that
the FAA had changed their recommended procedure for patterns.

You set medium low power on the engine and left it there until you
pulled to idle above over run. Their rational as explained to me was
that if the engine was running and you didn't change anything
(throttle) the statistics showed that engine had a very low
probability of quitting.

I didn't agree with them but followed their recommendations while
teaching.

Now for those who are #4 or$5 in an extended pattern. If you set a
throttle setting that will let you fly that extended patten and don't
screw with the throttle then you should have an engine unless you run
out of gas.

So there.

Big John
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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:43:28 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:56:22 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:

If you fly final with some amount of power (which I gather most people
do -- I always have) that seems to guarantee that if you lose your
engine on final you will land short, and there's pretty much nothing you
can do about it. Is that true?

Yes, that's true, and it's why the Old Timers taught power-off
landings, and it's why I fly them routinely.

(To tell the truth, I also like the feeling of whooshing down without
that engine blatting away. Perhaps I was a glider pilot in another
life.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Hilton wrote:
So what do you do? Pitch up - get as close to
stall speed as possible to stop the prop - ASAP!!!

In VFR nothing wrong with stalling the airplane if you have to.

Newps wrote:

Hilton wrote:
So what do you do? Pitch up - get as close to
stall speed as possible to stop the prop - ASAP!!!

In VFR nothing wrong with stalling the airplane if you have to.

Agreed. BTW: The video is actually very 'interesting' - and his commentary
and discussion of the events are even more interesting. After managing to
stop the prop (I don't know if I would have thought of that in the Oh Crap
moment - now I would), he lowered the landing gear. Because of the damage
to the cowl etc, the nose wheel did not extend. So Dave 'wiggled' the
rudder pedals which caused the nosewheel to extend and he landed safely.
After hopping out, he realised that the engine had broken off its mounts and
was hanging on by wires and pipes! He said in hind-sight, wiggling the
rudder pedals and yawing the plane from side to side probably wasn't that
smart, althought it sure made sense at the time.

Hilton

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:35:25 -0600, Big John
wrote:

Their rational as explained to me was
that if the engine was running and you didn't change anything
(throttle) the statistics showed that engine had a very low
probability of quitting.

This sounds like my doc's advice to me about a cardiovascular scan:
that it wasn't worth the money, which as I recall was $92. Now, that's
what it costs to go to the doc on a bright sunny day (he bills that
much; he doesn't get paid that much, but never mind).

He is talking about the whole universe of ageing American males: it's
cheaper to treat the occasional aortic aneurerism (well, however you
spell them) than to give every one a $92 scan.

But if you're the guy who dies from an aneurism, the math is cold
comfort.

Same with engine quitting while you're flying a wide pattern

No thanks! I got the $92 scan, and I fly the close pattern, power off
abeam the landing point.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Let's see: 1/4 @ 200 ft that would be:

1/4 mile = 6040/4 = 1510 ft

1510/200 = 7.55 L/D required.

OK maybe flaps up and best L/D Speed a C-172 might have 7.5 L/D ratio.
Of course that assumes no head wind.

I think I would prefer to be a little bit higher that that in most
cases .

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

And I have done many flight reviews with students that reduce power
abeam the numbers and then desend to about 300 feet while extending
there downwind to landing traffic. Then the fly the base and long
final at 300 feet.

A much better technique is to fly the extending downwind, base and
maybe even part of final at a 1000' AGL. Once within gliding range,
then reduce power. At least at 1000' feet you should have 20-30 seconds
to consider you options of where you are going to land should the
engine fail. At 300' your going to hit what ever is directly in front
of you.

Brian