Glider Fatality in WA

Mark Nyberg wrote:

A credible witness observed that by the time Joe realized he was in
trouble, he was too high, had a slight tailwind and had too much
energy for a normal landing. If he proceeded straight ahead he was
certainly going to overrun the runway and end up rolling into the
trees. For some reason he made a hard turn to the right followed by a
hard turn to the left. He ended up low (about 50' AGL) and slow near
midfield.

Out training teaches us to keep our speed up, but at very-low
altitudes our human nature tells us to pull back on the stick in a
turn to stay away from the ground. I didn't understand this very well
until I went up with and instructor who had me practice some slow
skidding turns (like the kind of turn we might be tempted to make from
base to final if we don't have much altitude). I found that stalling
and spin entry can be much easier and more dramatic than I thought. I
am glad you asked about this.

Mark Nyberg

It got me thinking about what I would do in the same situation. It
sounds like he made a reasonable choice by adding some length to his
final by doing some turns. Someone mentioned the field was 2000 feet or
so. Being able to loose enough energy to be slow and midfield at 50
feet sounds like he achieved his goal all too well. 1000 feet to land
from 50 feet sounds tight but doable especially if you're already slow
and need to speed up to do a proper flare. The thing I figured is that
it would *look* tight and maybe impossible especially if the drill at
that field is to land on the numbers (I don't know this). I do know
I've never been drilled with "Fly over most of the runway and stop with
the nose at the far end of the runway." If this was the situation he
was in, I could see how it ended badly.
My condolences to his family and friends

Shawn

Shawn Curry wrote:


It got me thinking about what I would do in the same situation. It
sounds like he made a reasonable choice by adding some length to his
final by doing some turns. Someone mentioned the field was 2000
feet or so.

Airnav lists the runway length at 2100'. The Terraserver image from
1998 shows it is about 2300'-2400' from the trees at one end to the
trees at the other end. I've never been there, but the lengths and
images suggest a field with very small margins for error.

Being able to loose enough energy to be slow and midfield at 50 feet
sounds like he achieved his goal all too well. 1000 feet to land
from 50 feet sounds tight but doable especially if you're already
slow and need to speed up to do a proper flare. The thing I figured
is that it would *look* tight and maybe impossible especially if the
drill at that field is to land on the numbers (I don't know this). I
do know I've never been drilled with "Fly over most of the runway and
stop with the nose at the far end of the runway." If this was the
situation he was in, I could see how it ended badly.

In the situation described above, I think the only option left is full
spoiler, dive steeply and put it on the ground as soon as possible, then
use full wheel brake and full forward stick. If that didn't stop the
glider in time, aiming between the trees as they approach might avoid
serious injury, as likely the speed would be slow by the time of collsion.

I'm not sure I would think of this if I were in that situation, as the
ground would seem to be going by rapidly with the tailwind, and the
trees would likely look very threatening.


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure I would think of this if I were in that situation, as the
ground would seem to be going by rapidly with the tailwind, and the
trees would likely look very threatening.

It is the fences that scare the hell out of me. Post 9/11, barbed wire is
probably much more prevalent on airport fences than it once was, just about neck
high when you are seated in a glider.

Vaughn

Airnav lists the runway length at 2100'. The Terraserver image from
1998 shows it is about 2300'-2400' from the trees at one end to the
trees at the other end. I've never been there, but the lengths and
images suggest a field with very small margins for error.

This reminds me of why I am thankful for the short field landing practice I was
urged to do when I first started flying my ASW-20.
My instructor told me to put traffic cones next to the runway 300-400 feet
apart and practice touching down at the first cone and stopping before the
second. Repeat three times every visit to the glider port the first month or
so.
Now a 2000 foot runway looks like Los Angeles International.
-
Mark Navarre
2/5 black ace
LoCal, USA
remove brain to reply
-

I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees, this
makes me wonder. In a glider with a span of let's say 15 to 18 m you
probably end up hitting a tree with one or two wings. An article in our club
magazine about outlanding mentioned that stick full forward and
intentionally ground-looping as the method of choice. The stick forward
would bring the tail up and prevent it from snapping off. Speed would be
down and the glider and more importantly yourself would survive. Anyway,
there is no more damage than hitting a tree with a wing.


Joeri.

"Eric Greenwell" schreef in bericht
...
Shawn Curry wrote:


It got me thinking about what I would do in the same situation. It
sounds like he made a reasonable choice by adding some length to his
final by doing some turns. Someone mentioned the field was 2000
feet or so.

Airnav lists the runway length at 2100'. The Terraserver image from
1998 shows it is about 2300'-2400' from the trees at one end to the
trees at the other end. I've never been there, but the lengths and
images suggest a field with very small margins for error.

Being able to loose enough energy to be slow and midfield at 50 feet
sounds like he achieved his goal all too well. 1000 feet to land
from 50 feet sounds tight but doable especially if you're already
slow and need to speed up to do a proper flare. The thing I figured
is that it would *look* tight and maybe impossible especially if the
drill at that field is to land on the numbers (I don't know this). I
do know I've never been drilled with "Fly over most of the runway and
stop with the nose at the far end of the runway." If this was the
situation he was in, I could see how it ended badly.

In the situation described above, I think the only option left is full
spoiler, dive steeply and put it on the ground as soon as possible, then
use full wheel brake and full forward stick. If that didn't stop the
glider in time, aiming between the trees as they approach might avoid
serious injury, as likely the speed would be slow by the time of collsion.

I'm not sure I would think of this if I were in that situation, as the
ground would seem to be going by rapidly with the tailwind, and the
trees would likely look very threatening.


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I am both saddened and angered by the recent carnage in the glider
community. There is no excuse for a stall-spin accident during an approach.
None, nada, zilch! Not in a glider, not in any aircraft.
Folks, see that little yellow triangle on your airspeed indicator? That is
the manufacturers recommended minimum approach speed. You should not go
below that speed on approach unless you are over the numbers and prepared to
land. For winds and gusts, you can add up to 10 knots to that speed but do
not allow your speed to go below it.
If you have a motor glider and you are landing with power on, after setting
up to land and reducing power to idle, do not touch the power lever. If you
have to use power to complete the landing, you have failed and should not be
flying motor gliders.

If you don't have a little yellow triangle, find out your stall speed in a
turn in your normal landing configuration. (Normally with partial spoilers
and gear down.) Add 30% to that speed and use that as your
never-go-below-on-approach speed.

I don't entirely buy the close-to-the-ground airspeed illusion but I can't
entirely discount it either.

In any aircraft, fly by airspeed and attitude. If the airspeed isn't where
it should be, adjust the glider attitude to make it so. A personal attitude
adjustment may be in order, as well. If you are not pleased with the
precision of your approach, practice, practice and practice until you are.

Be careful out there.

Allan


"Joeri Cools" wrote in message
...
I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to
make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees,
this
makes me wonder.
...Snip...

Joeri.

Here, here!

Bill Daniels

"ADP" wrote in message
...
I am both saddened and angered by the recent carnage in the glider
community. There is no excuse for a stall-spin accident during an
approach.
None, nada, zilch! Not in a glider, not in any aircraft.
Folks, see that little yellow triangle on your airspeed indicator? That
is
the manufacturers recommended minimum approach speed. You should not go
below that speed on approach unless you are over the numbers and prepared
to
land. For winds and gusts, you can add up to 10 knots to that speed but
do
not allow your speed to go below it.
If you have a motor glider and you are landing with power on, after
setting
up to land and reducing power to idle, do not touch the power lever. If
you
have to use power to complete the landing, you have failed and should not
be
flying motor gliders.

If you don't have a little yellow triangle, find out your stall speed in a
turn in your normal landing configuration. (Normally with partial
spoilers
and gear down.) Add 30% to that speed and use that as your
never-go-below-on-approach speed.

I don't entirely buy the close-to-the-ground airspeed illusion but I can't
entirely discount it either.

In any aircraft, fly by airspeed and attitude. If the airspeed isn't
where
it should be, adjust the glider attitude to make it so. A personal
attitude
adjustment may be in order, as well. If you are not pleased with the
precision of your approach, practice, practice and practice until you
are.

Be careful out there.

Allan


"Joeri Cools" wrote in message
...
I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to
make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a
steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees,
this
makes me wonder.
...Snip...

Joeri.

Joeri Cools wrote:
I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees, this
makes me wonder. In a glider with a span of let's say 15 to 18 m you
probably end up hitting a tree with one or two wings.

The intent was to get the fuselage between the trees, not the entire
glider (the trees are too close to do this, judging from the pictures of
the field). The wings would take most of the impact, and the cockpit
might be spared entirely.

An article in our club
magazine about outlanding mentioned that stick full forward and
intentionally ground-looping as the method of choice. The stick forward
would bring the tail up and prevent it from snapping off. Speed would be
down and the glider and more importantly yourself would survive. Anyway,
there is no more damage than hitting a tree with a wing.

A ground loop might be even better, especially if there is a fence. I
also wonder how well the glider could be steered, if the nose is down
and full wheel brake is applied. In that position, a ground loop might
happen even without the pilot's efforts. Since there was a tail wind, a
wing might already be on the ground.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:22:32 UTC, "Joeri Cools"
wrote:

: I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to make
: S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a steep
: dive with full spoilers is recommended.

I'm a sideslip enthusiast at such times myself. With full brake and a
full rudder slip the Pirat comes down like a parachute...

Ian

--

Airnav lists the runway length at 2100'. The Terraserver image from
1998 shows it is about 2300'-2400' from the trees at one end to the
trees at the other end. I've never been there, but the lengths and
images suggest a field with very small margins for error.

Being able to loose enough energy to be slow and midfield at 50 feet
sounds like he achieved his goal all too well. 1000 feet to land
from 50 feet sounds tight but doable especially if you're already
slow and need to speed up to do a proper flare. The thing I figured
is that it would *look* tight and maybe impossible especially if the
drill at that field is to land on the numbers (I don't know this). I
do know I've never been drilled with "Fly over most of the runway and
stop with the nose at the far end of the runway." If this was the
situation he was in, I could see how it ended badly.

In the situation described above, I think the only option left is full
spoiler, dive steeply and put it on the ground as soon as possible, then
use full wheel brake and full forward stick. If that didn't stop the
glider in time, aiming between the trees as they approach might avoid
serious injury, as likely the speed would be slow by the time of collsion.

I'm not sure I would think of this if I were in that situation, as the
ground would seem to be going by rapidly with the tailwind, and the
trees would likely look very threatening.

I once landed my DG-400 (1,000 lbs gross) on a 1,200 ft runway,
stopping a little more than halfway. I wanted to clear a stand pipe on
one side of the runway, so I gave up about 200 ft. This means I really
used about 500 ft to stop. This was a real life situation-not a
simulated one. This guy, flying a lighter glider than mine, should
have been able to get down from 50 ft and be fully stopped with 1,000
ft of runway he had left. In any case, going off the end of the runway
at low speed sure as hell beats going in vertical. S turning at 50 ft
is highly unadvisable.

Tom Seim
Richland, WA