"position & hold" going away

Robert M. Gary wrote:
That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from
the runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the
runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.


How long do you think it takes a heavy to do the same?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the
runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.



How long do you think it takes a heavy to do the same?



The one's I've flown take maybe 20-30 seconds. So, you just lead them a
little more while the landing airplane is rolling out. I don't think
this is any less safe then P&H. I didn't mind P&H in my Skylane as I
could see out the back windows enough to tell if someone was going to
land on me. However, in the Arrow I now fly, you are blind towards the
rear.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

The one's I've flown take maybe 20-30 seconds. So, you just lead them a
little more while the landing airplane is rolling out.


Lead them a little more? You mean delay the takeoff clearance a little
more, don't you?



I don't think this is any less safe then P&H.


The problem with P&H is not in holding aircraft on a runway, it's in
clearing other aircraft to land while aircraft are holding in position on
the runway. The solution is simple; stop clearing aircraft to land when
aircraft are holding in position.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

The one's I've flown take maybe 20-30 seconds. So, you just lead them a
little more while the landing airplane is rolling out.



Lead them a little more? You mean delay the takeoff clearance a little
more, don't you?

No, I meant give the takeoff clearance a little sooner while the
aircraft that just landed is still going down the runway heading for the
taxiway. This would have the same advantage as P&H in most circumstances.


I don't think this is any less safe then P&H.



The problem with P&H is not in holding aircraft on a runway, it's in
clearing other aircraft to land while aircraft are holding in position on
the runway. The solution is simple; stop clearing aircraft to land when
aircraft are holding in position.

Yes, that works also, but then what is the point of P&H if not to get
more throughput per active runway?

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

No, I meant give the takeoff clearance a little sooner while the aircraft
that just landed is still going down the runway heading for the taxiway.
This would have the same advantage as P&H in most circumstances.


That has the disadvantage of not ensuring runway separation.



Yes, that works also, but then what is the point of P&H if not to get more
throughput per active runway?


The point of position and hold IS to get more throughput per active runway,
and it does. Withholding the landing clearance while an aircraft is in
position wouldn't change that. Right now, aircraft can be cleared to land
while a departing aircraft is in position on the runway. Obviously, some
action has to be taken before the arriving aircraft can land safely, the
controller expects to issue a takeoff clearance to the aircraft in position
before the arriving aircraft gets too close. But what if he doesn't for
some reason?

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:40:25 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the
runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.


How long do you think it takes a heavy to do the same?

A DC-9 isn't a heavy, but I was on one at Philli International who was
bringing up the power during the turn onto the runway. We could hear
the tire squeal inside the plane. Still, I'd probably be able to get
out there and rolling sooner than he could. OTOH he could be "way up
there" while I'm just leaving the pattern.

I've always found it a bit intimidating to be taxiing behind something
I could taxi under, particularly with the knowledge there is another
big one right behind that I hope doesn't forget I'm there.

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that? Intersection take offs mixing with the big guys.
I haven't been into one of the really busy airports in over 6 or 7
years.)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:47:29 -0400, Roger
wrote:

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that? Intersection take offs mixing with the big guys.
I haven't been into one of the really busy airports in over 6 or 7
years.)

I was leaving KIAD once in the 172 and got an intersection departure
from Y (or maybe Z, but I think Y) from 30, skipping ahead of a jet or
two that was back at the threshold.

aw

"Roger" wrote

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that?

So they let you jump line, so you could get off quicker? Cool!
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"Roger" wrote


Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that?


So they let you jump line, so you could get off quicker? Cool!

Sometimes the big guys have in-trail separation requirements if they are going
the same direction, and they can get off a bugsmasher in the interval while
they're waiting for the required in-trail separation on the jets.

DGB