Where is the FAF on the GPS 23 approach to KUCP?

Just curious, how would vectors to the NDB final fit in with the
requirements to vector outside the approach gate if no approach gate
exists? (There is no FAF)

FAAH 7110.65 Section 9. Radar Arrivals

5-9-1. VECTORS TO FINAL APPROACH COURSE

Except as provided in para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, vector
arriving aircraft to intercept the final approach course:

a. At least 2 miles outside the approach gate unless one of the
following exists:

1. When the reported ceiling is at least 500 feet above the MVA/MIA and
the visibility is at least 3 miles (report may be a PIREP if no weather
is reported for the airport), aircraft may be vectored to intercept the
final approach course closer than 2 miles outside the approach gate but
no closer than the approach gate.

2. If specifically requested by the pilot, aircraft may be vectored to
intercept the final approach course inside the approach gate but no
closer than the final approach fix.

EXCEPTION. Conditions 1 and 2 above do not apply to RNAV aircraft being
vectored for a GPS or RNAV approach.


AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary
APPROACH GATE- An imaginary point used within ATC as a basis for
vectoring aircraft to the final approach course. The gate will be
established along the final approach course 1 mile from the final
approach fix on the side away from the airport and will be no closer
than 5 miles from the landing threshold.




Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:83Vdc.3108$xn4.16249@attbi_s51...

Semi-related question: Can vectors be issued for this type
of approach?



Yes.



In addition to the verbiage of "vectors for the approach" it was
mentioned that ATC is required to specify distance from the FAF.
Can ATC just provide a vector to intercept the approach course
and provide distance to the missed approach point / Airport / navaid?

I've only flown one or two of these as full practice approaches, so

I'm curious if there was anything different about them.



ATC must issue position information relative to a fix on the final approach
course. If none is portrayed on the radar display, or if none is prescribed
in the procedure, position information is issued relative to the
navigational aid which provides final approach course guidance or relative
to the airport.

"J Haggerty" wrote in message
news:GwWdc.10755$wb4.9646@okepread02...

Just curious, how would vectors to the NDB final fit in with the
requirements to vector outside the approach gate if no approach gate
exists? (There is no FAF)


Interesting. It appears the definition of Approach Gate was altered at some
point. As I recall, it did not formerly refer specifically to the FAF, but
to the outer marker or the point used in lieu of the outer marker.

J Haggerty wrote:

Just curious, how would vectors to the NDB final fit in with the
requirements to vector outside the approach gate if no approach gate
exists? (There is no FAF)

If there is no FAF what would preclude them from video mapping the approach gate
5 miles from the threshold?

wrote:

If there is no FAF what would preclude them from video mapping the approach gate
5 miles from the threshold?

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.

J Haggerty wrote:

wrote:

If there is no FAF what would preclude them from video mapping the approach gate
5 miles from the threshold?

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.

Then that means ATC can never vector to one of these on-airport approaches?

wrote:

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.


Then that means ATC can never vector to one of these on-airport approaches?


Keep in mind that there are 2 types of "on-airport" approaches; ones
with FAF's, and those without FAF's. Those with FAFs have both an
initial segment and an intermediate segment. Radar vectors to a
procedure with a FAF will set you up onto either the initial or
intermediate segment of the procedure, prior to the FAF. Trying to
vector an aircraft to final for a no-FAF procedure would be akin to
vectoring an aircraft to intercept inside the FAF for a procedure that
has a FAF.

FAAH 7110.65 (controllers bible) states what is needed for controllers
to vector an aircraft to the final approach course. As far as I can tell
from reading the applicable paragraphs in 7110.65, it appears there is
no authorization for controllers to vector an aircraft to intercept
final for a no-FAF procedure, based on the requirement to intercept
prior to the FAF, and a no-FAF procedure does not have a FAF. You can
review this chapter at the following website;
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html

Also, the TERPS manual states the requirements for initial segments of a
procedure. In most cases, it states that radar vectors can be
substituted for the initial approach segment (see para 711 and para
230), but in the paragraph that governs on-airport NDB no-FAF procedures
(para 611), it does not give this option, and limits the initial segment
to overheading the navigation facility on a procedure turn. You can
review the TERPS manual at;
http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directi...260.3_1-18.pdf

Based on the rules and regulations of those 2 manuals, I would say that
you're safe in saying that ATC can not normally vector to an on-airport
no-FAF NDB final. (I try to never say never, emergencies trump all regs!)

JPH

We customarily get vectors to final all the time on the NDB 22 SCH.
It has no FAF, and is a terminal approach.



On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:17:40 -0500, J Haggerty
wrote:

wrote:

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.


Then that means ATC can never vector to one of these on-airport approaches?


Keep in mind that there are 2 types of "on-airport" approaches; ones
with FAF's, and those without FAF's. Those with FAFs have both an
initial segment and an intermediate segment. Radar vectors to a
procedure with a FAF will set you up onto either the initial or
intermediate segment of the procedure, prior to the FAF. Trying to
vector an aircraft to final for a no-FAF procedure would be akin to
vectoring an aircraft to intercept inside the FAF for a procedure that
has a FAF.

FAAH 7110.65 (controllers bible) states what is needed for controllers
to vector an aircraft to the final approach course. As far as I can tell
from reading the applicable paragraphs in 7110.65, it appears there is
no authorization for controllers to vector an aircraft to intercept
final for a no-FAF procedure, based on the requirement to intercept
prior to the FAF, and a no-FAF procedure does not have a FAF. You can
review this chapter at the following website;
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html

Also, the TERPS manual states the requirements for initial segments of a
procedure. In most cases, it states that radar vectors can be
substituted for the initial approach segment (see para 711 and para
230), but in the paragraph that governs on-airport NDB no-FAF procedures
(para 611), it does not give this option, and limits the initial segment
to overheading the navigation facility on a procedure turn. You can
review the TERPS manual at;
http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directi...260.3_1-18.pdf

Based on the rules and regulations of those 2 manuals, I would say that
you're safe in saying that ATC can not normally vector to an on-airport
no-FAF NDB final. (I try to never say never, emergencies trump all regs!)

JPH

Bill Zaleski wrote:
We customarily get vectors to final all the time on the NDB 22 SCH.
It has no FAF, and is a terminal approach.

I'm curious, what do they say in the clearance? Do they give a position
in relation to the NDB and an altitude to maintain until intercepting
the final segment?
Based on their own regulation, I don't see how they can legally do that.
Based on the procedure design, it's not authorized.

JPH