Where is the FAF on the GPS 23 approach to KUCP?

J Haggerty wrote:

Just curious, how would vectors to the NDB final fit in with the
requirements to vector outside the approach gate if no approach gate
exists? (There is no FAF)

If there is no FAF what would preclude them from video mapping the approach gate
5 miles from the threshold?

wrote:

If there is no FAF what would preclude them from video mapping the approach gate
5 miles from the threshold?

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.

J Haggerty wrote:

wrote:

If there is no FAF what would preclude them from video mapping the approach gate
5 miles from the threshold?

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.

Then that means ATC can never vector to one of these on-airport approaches?

wrote:

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.


Then that means ATC can never vector to one of these on-airport approaches?


Keep in mind that there are 2 types of "on-airport" approaches; ones
with FAF's, and those without FAF's. Those with FAFs have both an
initial segment and an intermediate segment. Radar vectors to a
procedure with a FAF will set you up onto either the initial or
intermediate segment of the procedure, prior to the FAF. Trying to
vector an aircraft to final for a no-FAF procedure would be akin to
vectoring an aircraft to intercept inside the FAF for a procedure that
has a FAF.

FAAH 7110.65 (controllers bible) states what is needed for controllers
to vector an aircraft to the final approach course. As far as I can tell
from reading the applicable paragraphs in 7110.65, it appears there is
no authorization for controllers to vector an aircraft to intercept
final for a no-FAF procedure, based on the requirement to intercept
prior to the FAF, and a no-FAF procedure does not have a FAF. You can
review this chapter at the following website;
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html

Also, the TERPS manual states the requirements for initial segments of a
procedure. In most cases, it states that radar vectors can be
substituted for the initial approach segment (see para 711 and para
230), but in the paragraph that governs on-airport NDB no-FAF procedures
(para 611), it does not give this option, and limits the initial segment
to overheading the navigation facility on a procedure turn. You can
review the TERPS manual at;
http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directi...260.3_1-18.pdf

Based on the rules and regulations of those 2 manuals, I would say that
you're safe in saying that ATC can not normally vector to an on-airport
no-FAF NDB final. (I try to never say never, emergencies trump all regs!)

JPH

We customarily get vectors to final all the time on the NDB 22 SCH.
It has no FAF, and is a terminal approach.



On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:17:40 -0500, J Haggerty
wrote:

wrote:

The requirement for the approach gate is that it has to be 1 mile from
the FAF "and" at least 5 miles from the threshold. Without a FAF, there
can be no approach gate.


Then that means ATC can never vector to one of these on-airport approaches?


Keep in mind that there are 2 types of "on-airport" approaches; ones
with FAF's, and those without FAF's. Those with FAFs have both an
initial segment and an intermediate segment. Radar vectors to a
procedure with a FAF will set you up onto either the initial or
intermediate segment of the procedure, prior to the FAF. Trying to
vector an aircraft to final for a no-FAF procedure would be akin to
vectoring an aircraft to intercept inside the FAF for a procedure that
has a FAF.

FAAH 7110.65 (controllers bible) states what is needed for controllers
to vector an aircraft to the final approach course. As far as I can tell
from reading the applicable paragraphs in 7110.65, it appears there is
no authorization for controllers to vector an aircraft to intercept
final for a no-FAF procedure, based on the requirement to intercept
prior to the FAF, and a no-FAF procedure does not have a FAF. You can
review this chapter at the following website;
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html

Also, the TERPS manual states the requirements for initial segments of a
procedure. In most cases, it states that radar vectors can be
substituted for the initial approach segment (see para 711 and para
230), but in the paragraph that governs on-airport NDB no-FAF procedures
(para 611), it does not give this option, and limits the initial segment
to overheading the navigation facility on a procedure turn. You can
review the TERPS manual at;
http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directi...260.3_1-18.pdf

Based on the rules and regulations of those 2 manuals, I would say that
you're safe in saying that ATC can not normally vector to an on-airport
no-FAF NDB final. (I try to never say never, emergencies trump all regs!)

JPH

Bill Zaleski wrote:
We customarily get vectors to final all the time on the NDB 22 SCH.
It has no FAF, and is a terminal approach.

I'm curious, what do they say in the clearance? Do they give a position
in relation to the NDB and an altitude to maintain until intercepting
the final segment?
Based on their own regulation, I don't see how they can legally do that.
Based on the procedure design, it's not authorized.

JPH

Normal verbage: 6 miles from Hunter, trun left heading xxx maintain
xx until established, cleared..


On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:13:19 -0500, J Haggerty
wrote:

Bill Zaleski wrote:
We customarily get vectors to final all the time on the NDB 22 SCH.
It has no FAF, and is a terminal approach.

I'm curious, what do they say in the clearance? Do they give a position
in relation to the NDB and an altitude to maintain until intercepting
the final segment?
Based on their own regulation, I don't see how they can legally do that.
Based on the procedure design, it's not authorized.

JPH