Cirrus vs ASW

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jack wrote:

I read Mr. Greenwell's comments with the same respect I usually have
for his comments. I have to disagree with him on this one. Instructors
and some seasoned pilots told me what a man-killer a 1-35 was.


Have you actually owned (like Eric), or at least flown, a Standard
Cirrus? The logic underlying your disagreement here escapes me (unless,
of course, you actually have a few hundred hours in a Standard Cirrus).
The reality is that there are people who make pronouncements based on
what they hear, and others who make them based on their own experiences.
Ignoring the latter, because of the former, is just plain stupid...

Marc


Hi Marc

As a DG Driver may we assume you do not have "hundreds of hours in ASW20s and
Std Cirrus"? If so I assume you are one of those making pronouncements based on
hearsay?

Both the preceding posts contain wisdom. My first flight in a single seater of
any sort was in my Std Cirrus. Though the CFI and other instructors allowed me
to take the flight the responsibility for taking it was mine. Same with any
person making a first flight on type in a single seater. The famous inscription
at the Temple of Apollo at the entrance to the oracle of Delphi says - "Know
thyself" As Bob said, you are responsible for your own safety. Objective self
assessment is your only rational option.

A responsible pilot researches the aircraft he plans to fly, and prepares. But
if the vast number of vociferous critics out there are right there is not a
single glider out there that is not fatally flawed in some respect. Hell even
the LS4 gets criticism for its collapsing undercarriage. So you have to try to
be objective and filter the hyperbole and plain bull.

The statistics confirm that it is very seldom the glider at fault when things go
horribly wrong. Again from bitter personal experience, that white stripe down
the runway from a PIO on landing with the Cirrus cost about $100/metre. I got it
wrong, and the Cirrus got away from me - the wheel snatched when I braked, I
overcorrected - tip, bounce and bang. My fault - not the glider, blaming the
tool is the sign of a poor workman... It would be easier on the old ego to tell
tales of wild efforts to control an unforgiving etc. etc. airplane - Conversely
if you accept responsibility and learn from the experience you are better for it.

Best would be to avoid getting it wrong in the first place. Again, you have to
know what your capabilities are, and how they match the characteristics of the
glider.

I find it interesting to see the number of Std Cirruses flying decades after
production ceased - it has to have something going for it. Same with other
types. Any number of detractors, but the types popularity indicates otherwise.
--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

Bruce wrote:
As a DG Driver may we assume you do not have "hundreds of hours in
ASW20s and Std Cirrus"? If so I assume you are one of those making
pronouncements based on hearsay?

Actually, I have about 200 hours in various ASW-20 models, including an
ASW-20BL which I owned for a couple of years. You'll note I explicitly
indicated that I could not comment on the characteristics of the
Standard Cirrus, as I've never even sat in one and made glider noises.
The one thing I did say was with respect to my general dislike of
gliders with manual elevator hookups. We had recent accident here in
the US that indicates one can indeed take off (but not land) with the
elevator disconnected in a Standard Cirrus.

For your future reference if I say anything about the K-21, Grob 103,
ASW-20, Ventus B, Duo, LAK-17A, and yes, DG-101, 300, and 303, it is
based on anything from 50 to 300 hours of experience. I don't think you
can point to too many of my posts where I talk about about gliders I've
never flown. I just bought a DG-600 (a glider with a bad reputation,
BTW), so expect further pronouncements.

Both the preceding posts contain wisdom. My first flight in a single
seater of any sort was in my Std Cirrus. Though the CFI and other
instructors allowed me to take the flight the responsibility for taking
it was mine. Same with any person making a first flight on type in a
single seater. The famous inscription at the Temple of Apollo at the
entrance to the oracle of Delphi says - "Know thyself" As Bob said, you
are responsible for your own safety. Objective self assessment is your
only rational option.

Absolutely. My argument is with the notion that because one has had
good experiences with a particular glider, anyone who makes a few
negative comments must therefore be talking out of their arse, even if
they actually have as much or more experience in type. There is a lot
of personal preference at work here. ALL gliders have positives and
negatives. If someone asks, they need to hear both sides.

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bruce wrote:

As a DG Driver may we assume you do not have "hundreds of hours in
ASW20s and Std Cirrus"? If so I assume you are one of those making
pronouncements based on hearsay?


Actually, I have about 200 hours in various ASW-20 models, including an
ASW-20BL which I owned for a couple of years. You'll note I explicitly
indicated that I could not comment on the characteristics of the
Standard Cirrus, as I've never even sat in one and made glider noises.
The one thing I did say was with respect to my general dislike of
gliders with manual elevator hookups. We had recent accident here in
the US that indicates one can indeed take off (but not land) with the
elevator disconnected in a Standard Cirrus.

Sorry Marc - clumsy attempt at humour. I know you are experienced on a number of
types. Just did strike me that you were in danger of doing exactly what you were
criticizing...


For your future reference if I say anything about the K-21, Grob 103,
ASW-20, Ventus B, Duo, LAK-17A, and yes, DG-101, 300, and 303, it is
based on anything from 50 to 300 hours of experience. I don't think you
can point to too many of my posts where I talk about about gliders I've
never flown. I just bought a DG-600 (a glider with a bad reputation,
BTW), so expect further pronouncements.

Both the preceding posts contain wisdom. My first flight in a single
seater of any sort was in my Std Cirrus. Though the CFI and other
instructors allowed me to take the flight the responsibility for
taking it was mine. Same with any person making a first flight on type
in a single seater. The famous inscription at the Temple of Apollo at
the entrance to the oracle of Delphi says - "Know thyself" As Bob
said, you are responsible for your own safety. Objective self
assessment is your only rational option.


Absolutely. My argument is with the notion that because one has had
good experiences with a particular glider, anyone who makes a few
negative comments must therefore be talking out of their arse, even if
they actually have as much or more experience in type. There is a lot
of personal preference at work here. ALL gliders have positives and
negatives. If someone asks, they need to hear both sides.

Marc

Agreed, listen to them all critically. Both sides, everyone tends to love what
they own, warts and all, and it is common to generalse a personal dislike or
inability into a design fault in what we are unfamiliar or unsuccessful with.

It just irritates me hearing all these arguments that eventually come down to
this urge to dumb things down to the point where the skill and challenge
disappears.

Many gliders are currently beyond my capabilities. I look forward to changing
the part I have control over. I also know the newer designs have better
handling, but their prices are also beyond me.

As an aside, the only DG600 owner I know is extremely content with his, flies
his backside numb and takes pains to point out the superior finnish compared to
my Schempp product. Hope you enjoy yours as much.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

Marc,

You and I said about the same thing in different ways. However, I don't
agree that persons speaking from their experience will always impart
wisdom. I posted the truth, that I have 1 flight of 2 hours in a
Standard Cirrus. That has nothing to do with the meat of the matter. I
don't personally care for Jantars, but someone looking at one to buy it
has to figure out for himself/herself whether or not that ship is what
they want, and can handle. How does one go about that? I would talk to
several folks that have them, currently. If they all describe the same
thing that's likely to kill you, then you'd be foolhardy to buy it.
When I first flew the 1-35 I mentioned, all the nay-sayers were porch
sitters that hadn't flown it. How did they know whether it had bad
habits? The person that told me it's "just another airplane with it's
own traits" did me a favor. I was glad in a way that almost no one else
flew it, because it was a club ship that I could keep all afternoon. I
had a ball.

So, because you missed the point of my rant, here it is: Just because
you don't like something doesn't make it bad, or wrong for me. Just
because something's dangerous for you doesn't make it dangerous for me.
Just because something is beyond your skill level, doesn't make it
beyond mine. Yes, designs have improved, but that doesn't make the
older ones inherantly dangerous. Are there dangerous gliders out there?
Yes, absolutely, and especially in the wrong hands, and even more
especially with the wrong advice. The former owner of my PIK was told
to begin his first takeoff with +45 degrees of flap... what a surprise
he had! There are certainly gliders out there that I wouldn't fly,
because they are beyond my skill level. I know which ones they are. I'm
not bashing them here nor anywhere else.

I may be crazy, bit I'm not stupid. Stupid may be listening to someone
telling you of his experiences, while not telling you the whole story.
I read an account of a guy in a 1-35 that had an accident at initial
rollout. What I got from it was that he had no business in that ship.
Unfortunately, the writeup villified that airplane. That's just one
example of not getting the whole story. Eric was forthcoming with his
experiences, and is a well-intentioned gentleman from everything I have
read on RAS. I just don't think he's a good judge of whether or not the
original poster would be fine with a Cirrus or not. Only that person
can figure that out. And, whether or not I've owned a Standard Cirrus
has naught to do with that argument.

Jack Womack