IFR logging question - is this legal?

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Dave S wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:
IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most
certainly can.. because he IS the PIC.


There is no such provision under 61.51(e). You do not get to log PIC
just because you are Pilot In Command.

-Robert, CFII


But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.

Dave

Dave S wrote:
But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.

Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing
in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs
do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood
in VMC.

-Robert, CFII

Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing
in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs
do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood
in VMC.

Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either.
Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required,
so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA
=interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a
venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this
interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC
training.

Whether they do or not is a legitimate question.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On 06/30/06 21:03, Jose wrote:
Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing
in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs
do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood
in VMC.

Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either.
Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required,
so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA
=interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a
venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this
interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC
training.

Can you please provide a reference to this interpretation? Is it
written up in a legal counsel opinion somewhere?



Whether they do or not is a legitimate question.

Jose



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either. Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required, so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA =interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC training.


Can you please provide a reference to this interpretation? Is it
written up in a legal counsel opinion somewhere?

It is written up in the FAA FAQs, which used to be available online, but
was taken down a year or two ago. Perhaps a new version is up.

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However, the answers in this website address Frequently Asked Questions on 14 CFR part 61 and represents FAA Flight Standards Service policy as it relates to this regulation. The answers are provided for standardization purposes only.

Without scouring the document, here's a sample that illustrates.

QUESTION: Is it true that a qualified pilot can log pilot-in-command time for all flight time during which he acts as a required safety pilot per 14 CFR §91.109?

ANSWER: Yes, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC time in accordance with §61.51(e)(ii) which states ". . . regulations under which the flight is conducted."
{Q&A-88}

As it pertains to our discussion, I also came across this in the FAQ:

QUESTION: Regarding §61.51's definition of "operating an aircraft" an aircraft certified for two pilots is being operated under part 121. The PIC is "flying" the aircraft. The SIC is the non-flying pilot. Can the SIC log actual instrument flight time for those periods of actual IMC conditions when the PIC is flying the aircraft? Is the SIC considered to be "operating" the aircraft at this moment to justify logging this instrument time.

ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(f) and (g); The SIC is permitted to log the time as SIC time, as per §61.51(f). However, he is not permitted to log the time as instrument time, because as per §61.51(g), the person can only log instrument time “. . . for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions . . .” {Emphasis added “operates the aircraft”]. In your scenario, you stated the SIC was the non-flying pilot. So, the SIC crewmember was not operating the aircraft.

And even though you didn’t ask, the logged time has limited value. It cannot be used for the recency of experience under §61.57(c) because “ . . . operates the aircraft . . .” (otherwise meaning hands-on, flying pilot, etc.) is required.

Nor can this SIC time be used for meeting the ATP instrument aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159(a)(3) [i.e., “75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to . . . .”]
{Q&A-345}

So, the non-flying safety pilot could not log instrument time even in
IMC. Only the pilot flying (sole manipulator) gets that.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
So, the non-flying safety pilot could not log instrument time even in
IMC. Only the pilot flying (sole manipulator) gets that.

Yes, the non flying pilot is a passenger (even though he may actually
be serving as PIC). Of course 61.51 makes an exemption for CFIIs

-Robert, CFII

Jose wrote:
Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either.
Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required,
so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA
=interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a
venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this
interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC
training.

I don't follow. There is no reg that says IMC flights requires multiple
pilots (which is what 61.51(e) requires for multiple logging). Hood
time does have such a reg.

91.109
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless-

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses
at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings
appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

In order for multiple pilots to log time in IMC you would have to point
to a simular reg for actual instrument.

91.109
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless-

In IMC, the pilot flying may keep the hood on, and thus a safety pilot
would be required. The pilot flying would then log this as simulated
instrument flight, even though he is in actual.

The rule is carved out well enough for the feds, but it is a special
exception, given that simulated instrument conditions are an
artificality anyway.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
91.109
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless-

In IMC, the pilot flying may keep the hood on, and thus a safety pilot
would be required. The pilot flying would then log this as simulated
instrument flight, even though he is in actual.

So your argument is that actual IMC is "simulated instrument flight"?
Sounds like you'd have to be a real Perry Mason to argue that.

-Robert

So your argument is that actual IMC is "simulated instrument flight"?
Sounds like you'd have to be a real Perry Mason to argue that.

It is if the pilot flying is wearing a hood.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.