Minimum fuel

Denny wrote:
So what is the point of this post? Well not much, except rules can be
broken ( NASA just did) if done carefully, but it still feels bad...
It will be a long time before I break the 1 hour rule again,
significant other not withstanding...


I don't have a formal one hour rule. I learned and live this one: "If you're
worried about fuel, you don't have enough." I'll fly overgrossed before I'll
fly light.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:57:02 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

When you write "there's no need to lie", you are no longer talking about
aviation. You are making a statement about the person's relationship with
his SO, one that may or may not be true depending on the actual nature of
the relationship.

Well, perhaps it's just me, but if I have to lie to my SO to assert my
command authority as PIC, I would be looking for another SO pronto.

I am a fanatic about not ever going into the
last hour of fuel, for any reason...

This will usually keep you out of trouble, but I can see where it might
get you =into= trouble. If, for example, weather is deteriorating, an
unnecessary fuel stop will have you flying in worse weather than if you
had simply continued on. Which is to be preferred depends of course on
how much worse, and how much further on. There are many variables, and
while it's usually safer to just be on the ground, that defeats the
purpose of flying in the first place. Using five minutes of a one hour
reserve to save half an hour in which ceilings would be lowering from a
smooth 3000 to a ragged 1500 with the sun going down is an exchange I
would make. Using forty-five minutes of that same reserve to avoid a
3000 foot scattered layer in the middle of the day is not.

Setting conservative personal minima may be a good thing, but knowing
they are conservative should give you leeway to extending them in some
circumstances, and accepting the additional risk in exchange for
additional benefit, or for lowering a different additional risk. One
must always be careful not to let the creeping "just-a-little-mores" get
you, but that is what aeronautical decision making is about. Personal
minima not to be exceeded "for any reason" is not really decision
making, it is decision avoiding. Sometimes that's a good thing. But
not always. I see nothing wrong with your decision.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I was the same way for many years after I exhausted my fuel. However,
after years of carefully calculating and avoiding getting into that
last hour of fuel, I have regained the confidence to use some of it
when it works to my advantage. I believe that rules need to be reviewed
from time to time. Experiences, confidence/skill levels, and other
factors may warrant a change in the rules, in either the more liberal
or the more conservative direction. I've changed rules in both
directions. One just needs to be sure that changes in the rules are
well thought out, and based on the facts, not outside pressures. Yes,
my nervous system still is quite aware when I get into that last hour.

--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




Denny wrote:
Just a comment... Last weekend I had to move a full load, five seats
and baggage, across three states with multiple stops... This required
a light fuel load to make the W&B work out...

For those who have not seen my postings on fuel before, I am a fanatic
about not ever going into the last hour of fuel, for any reason... I
have even, in the distant past, landed 20 minutes from home for gas to
avoid busting my own one hour minimum rule... Given that the current
bird holds six hours of fuel and my bladder range is four hours, it has
been many years since I had less than two hours in the tanks...

Anyway, this time the significant other was breathing down my neck
about completing the flights on a fixed schedule... After beating up
on my whiz wheel for 20 minutes it became clear I would have to suspend
the fuel rule for the first time in decades, and go 15 minutes into the
fuel reserve because there 'aint no' gas station in the middle of Lake
Erie... I measure fuel by the clock and use the fuel gauges only as a
'how goes it' indicator, though I know from experience the gauge on the
main tank is on the money... So, there we are going across Lake Erie
on a gorgeous sunny day as the needle just touches the 1/4 mark which
means exactly 60 minutes of fuel left.. The count down timer I normally
use for approaches agrees with the gauge...

What didn't agree was my pucker factor... Amazing what your nervous
system can do when it wants your attention... In spite of my
intellectual knowledge that I had 15 minutes until landing with 60
minutes of fuel on board, my parasympathetic nervous system threw a
tantrum... I got a hollow in the pit of my stomach.. My palms got
sweaty... I had that, 'something bad is going to happen' sensation...
OTOH, the engines continued to do the Lycoming four banger, shake,
rattle, and roll... They weren't nervous... And the flight ended with
the usual squeak of tires on the concrete at Port Clinton...

So what is the point of this post? Well not much, except rules can be
broken ( NASA just did) if done carefully, but it still feels bad...
It will be a long time before I break the 1 hour rule again,
significant other not withstanding...

denny

"Peter Duniho" wrote:
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/laketemps/COLD_LE.htm


The water at the Lake Erie beaches must feel like bathwater! (in the
summer, I mean)

Surfers wear wetsuits in 70 deg. water. It's cold enough to produce
hypothermia in 6-12 hours of exposure.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Peter Duniho" wrote:
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/laketemps/COLD_LE.htm


The water at the Lake Erie beaches must feel like bathwater! (in the
summer, I mean)

Surfers wear wetsuits in 70 deg. water. It's cold enough to produce
hypothermia in 6-12 hours of exposure.

Something has gotten lost in the translation, I think.

The water temp of 70 degrees is at 30 feet of depth. At the surface, it is
much warmer. It does indeed get very warm at the surface, at the beaches.
--
Jim in NC

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
Well, perhaps it's just me, but if I have to lie to my SO to assert my
command authority as PIC, I would be looking for another SO pronto.

Me too. But like I said, that's not an aviation issue, and since you don't
know the specifics of the relationship in question, you can't make a blanket
statement about what "works" for them.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:35:51 -0400, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in
::

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
. ..
On 5 Jul 2006 07:38:28 -0700, "Denny" wrote in
...
What's the water temperature in Lake Erie this time of year? :-(


Surface temperature is about 70 degrees F...

While they're reporting 73 degrees F at 30 foot depth he
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/laketemps/laketemps.htm

It would appear that the lowest surface temperature is 39 degrees F as
reported he http://www.coas****ch.msu.edu/erie/e.html

The temperature in the shaded areas (like where you see the 39 F) is not
reliable due to clouds. 70ish is prety good for most of the lake. The upper
lakes are a lot colder, but Erie runs on the warm side...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

In article ,
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote:

The temperature in the shaded areas (like where you see the 39 F) is not
reliable due to clouds. 70ish is prety good for most of the lake. The upper
lakes are a lot colder, but Erie runs on the warm side...

Only at the western half, which is shallow. The central and Eastern half
are quite deep. When the wind is blowing strong out of the east, it is
not unusual for the depth at the west side to increase by several feet.

Lake Erie depth charts

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/greatla.../e_gmorph.htm#
a789