Landings question

I am one of those people with ongoing intermittent landing problems. I
have good patches - managed to get solo recently - and then bad
patches. The bad patches probably co-incide with forgetting to look up
as I start the round-out, so there is no hold-off and a rather heavy
landing, sometimes with a bounce.

I've got my own ideas on how to address this, was curious if anyone
else here has had the same problem and if so, how did you deal with it?
Unfortunately I reckon I developed the bad habit fairly early in my
flying, as it was well-established by the time someone pointed out what
was going on. Since I seem to be reasonably good at doing what I'm
told to do, via a route from ears to hands & feet that misses my brain,
I suspect I've flattered to deceive in the front seat.

Sounds like you have identified the most likely cause. I tell students
to watch the spot on approach, then when it is in "point blank range"
there is no need to look at it any more, and it's time to look at the
other end of the runway.

Tom Knauff has students stand near the runway and bend at the knees to
simulate the last part of the landing hold-off. You look down the
runway and note the perspective changes that are the cues you need to
maintain a slow descent. For a comparison you can also look at the
ground near your feet to see how ineffective this is.

Cats wrote:
I am one of those people with ongoing intermittent landing problems. I
have good patches - managed to get solo recently - and then bad
patches. The bad patches probably co-incide with forgetting to look up
as I start the round-out, so there is no hold-off and a rather heavy
landing, sometimes with a bounce.

I've got my own ideas on how to address this, was curious if anyone
else here has had the same problem and if so, how did you deal with it?
Unfortunately I reckon I developed the bad habit fairly early in my
flying, as it was well-established by the time someone pointed out what
was going on. Since I seem to be reasonably good at doing what I'm
told to do, via a route from ears to hands & feet that misses my brain,
I suspect I've flattered to deceive in the front seat.

Derek Piggott did exactly the same thing as Tom Knauff, especially when
training instructors.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sounds like you have identified the most likely cause. I tell students
to watch the spot on approach, then when it is in "point blank range"
there is no need to look at it any more, and it's time to look at the
other end of the runway.

Tom Knauff has students stand near the runway and bend at the knees to
simulate the last part of the landing hold-off. You look down the
runway and note the perspective changes that are the cues you need to
maintain a slow descent. For a comparison you can also look at the
ground near your feet to see how ineffective this is.

Cats wrote:
I am one of those people with ongoing intermittent landing problems. I
have good patches - managed to get solo recently - and then bad
patches. The bad patches probably co-incide with forgetting to look up
as I start the round-out, so there is no hold-off and a rather heavy
landing, sometimes with a bounce.



I have students sit in the glider while two other folks stand outside:
one levels the wings, the other one stands at the tail. We then lift
the tail to the pitch attitude that approximates approach speed to get
a good feel for that sight picture. I ask the student to carefully
pick some reference points and try to ingrain those in his/her mind.
We then rotate to landing attitude and to the same. I really want the
person to get the idea that they rotat to a certain attitude and then
hold there while speed bleeds off. Obviously, this isn't perfect,
since the rotation really needs to happen a little bit higher up
(grin), but it does give the sense for the amount of pitch change
required.

Depending on the aircraft, the rotation can be pretty significant (e.g.
a 2-33) or pretty subtle (e.g. a G103).

I definitely agree that getting yourself to focus on a point in the
distance (e.g. tree tops at the far end of the runway) makes this whole
process easier. Whatever you do, spend some time on the ground in the
airplane fooling around with this.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3

p.s. A good friend of mine did the same thing for me when I was trying
to learn to fly taildraggers in a J3 Cub. It was really helpful to
get a sense for the min and max pitch attitudes required.

"Cats" wrote in message
ps.com...
I am one of those people with ongoing intermittent landing problems. I
have good patches - managed to get solo recently - and then bad
patches. The bad patches probably co-incide with forgetting to look up
as I start the round-out, so there is no hold-off and a rather heavy
landing, sometimes with a bounce.

I've got my own ideas on how to address this, was curious if anyone
else here has had the same problem and if so, how did you deal with it?
Unfortunately I reckon I developed the bad habit fairly early in my
flying, as it was well-established by the time someone pointed out what
was going on. Since I seem to be reasonably good at doing what I'm
told to do, via a route from ears to hands & feet that misses my brain,
I suspect I've flattered to deceive in the front seat.



First, make sure your altimeter is accurately set before launch. Then, when
on short final, carefully watch the altimeter instead of the runway. When at
5 feet AGL, push the stick forward all the way - - hard. While this method
will not usually result in the smoothest of landings, whatever landings you
do manage to accomplish, before being kicked out of your club or banished
from the airfield, will all be pretty much consistent.

all the best,

bumper

bumper wrote:

First, make sure your altimeter is accurately set before launch. Then, when
on short final, carefully watch the altimeter instead of the runway. When at
5 feet AGL, push the stick forward all the way - - hard. While this method
will not usually result in the smoothest of landings, whatever landings you
do manage to accomplish, before being kicked out of your club or banished
from the airfield, will all be pretty much consistent.

So, bumper, it started to rain on your way to the gliderport this
morning?

Then again, I must admit I have seen some landings that seem to have
used the procedure you describe - fun to watch, especially it it's a
G-103 being abused.

Something about practicing no-spoiler landings...

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Actually, this is not too far from what I was "taught" except that I
was told to watch the airspeed and fly the 2-33 right into the runway
and up on the skid. It wasn't until I was preparing for my commercial
checkride that I had an instructor actually teach me how to land.

bumper wrote:

First, make sure your altimeter is accurately set before launch. Then, when
on short final, carefully watch the altimeter instead of the runway. When at
5 feet AGL, push the stick forward all the way - - hard. While this method
will not usually result in the smoothest of landings, whatever landings you
do manage to accomplish, before being kicked out of your club or banished
from the airfield, will all be pretty much consistent.

all the best,

bumper

This was my experience also. I think the instructors were trying to reduce
the rollout so they did not need to push back as far. We did spend a lot of
time replacing worn skids.

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
ups.com...
Actually, this is not too far from what I was "taught" except that I
was told to watch the airspeed and fly the 2-33 right into the runway
and up on the skid. It wasn't until I was preparing for my commercial
checkride that I had an instructor actually teach me how to land.

bumper wrote:

First, make sure your altimeter is accurately set before launch. Then,
when
on short final, carefully watch the altimeter instead of the runway. When
at
5 feet AGL, push the stick forward all the way - - hard. While this
method
will not usually result in the smoothest of landings, whatever landings
you
do manage to accomplish, before being kicked out of your club or banished
from the airfield, will all be pretty much consistent.

all the best,

bumper

"Cats" wrote in message
ps.com...
I am one of those people with ongoing intermittent landing problems. I
have good patches - managed to get solo recently - and then bad
patches. The bad patches probably co-incide with forgetting to look up
as I start the round-out, so there is no hold-off and a rather heavy
landing, sometimes with a bounce.

I've got my own ideas on how to address this, was curious if anyone
else here has had the same problem and if so, how did you deal with it?
Unfortunately I reckon I developed the bad habit fairly early in my
flying, as it was well-established by the time someone pointed out what
was going on. Since I seem to be reasonably good at doing what I'm
told to do, via a route from ears to hands & feet that misses my brain,
I suspect I've flattered to deceive in the front seat.


I am not a CFI or CFIG so claim no authority, but/and can only comment on
what worked for me.

It is said by many that the route to good landings is practice, practice,
practice. The key is not to keep practicing your mistakes. Learning to
land in gliders is difficult because it is hard (and expensive) to do enough
of them. Tows are expensive and we seldom make more than a small number of
landings in a training day. IMHE the best way to learn to land is with a
GOOD CFI, in a light tailwheel aircraft and at a small quiet airport. This
will allow you to make many landings in an hour and is much more cost and
time effective than purchasing tows. Gliders require ground crews for
assistance and it is hard to get more than 4 landings /hr. An aircraft
needs no assistance and can easily make 12 or more landings in an hour, and
the cost per landing will be a small fraction of the cost of gliders + tows.
A winch will change the economics but I suspect that the powered aircraft
will still be much cheaper. My personal favorite trainer is the Citabria
but the quality and experience of the CFI is much more important than the
choice of aircraft.

All students do not have identical learning styles. Some wish only to
memorize the mechanics and procedures, while others require a deeper
understanding of why the procedures function. The penny dropped for me
(after hundreds of just fair landings) after I learned the math and I could
understand WHY the flair required that the AOA be increased at a smooth
accelerating RATE as the aircraft slows in the holdoff (hint, think about
the Vsquared part of the lift formula), in order to allow the increasing
drag to bleed off speed and energy . There is a lot going on in the
roundout and again as an aircraft gets close to quitting to fly and the
control feedback (pressures) and visual perception becomes quite subtle.

IMHO, It is our job as pilots to place the aircraft at the right location
and speed (energy) and altitude and with the right attitude so that the
aircraft can decide when it wants to stop flying and land.

Happy landings to all,

Private wrote:

It is said by many that the route to good landings is practice, practice,
practice. The key is not to keep practicing your mistakes. Learning to
land in gliders is difficult because it is hard (and expensive) to do enough
of them.

I didn't find this to be true when I was an active CFIG; in fact, our
tow pilot (an airplane instructor) once remarked at how quickly glider
pilots learned to land compared to a student in airplanes. I think the
biggest difference, at least when I was teaching, was we had a 5 to 10
minute discussion after every landing as we pushed the glider back to
the launch point, and sometimes continued the discussion at the launch
point, even if the tow plane was back and ready to tow. This discussion
was very important, because the student had some time to think about the
previous landing, then learned to identify what when wrong and why, and
decide how to correct it.

Most students could do a decent landing in our Blanik after 15 flights,
starting with deciding when to break off the airwork and return to the
airport, entering the pattern, and finally, the actual "landing". I say
"landing" because I think the landing starts with the decision to land,
not the flare.

Contrast this with the "airplane" method, which often involves landing
after landing (touch and goes), with little discussion or time for
reflection. Eventually, the student is able to manage a landing, but
isn't really confident that he/she knows what is right.

Tows are expensive and we seldom make more than a small number of
landings in a training day. IMHE the best way to learn to land is with a
GOOD CFI, in a light tailwheel aircraft and at a small quiet airport. This
will allow you to make many landings in an hour and is much more cost and
time effective than purchasing tows.

I haven't tried this technique, so I can't compare it to the glider-only
method, but the $$ will depend greatly on details of charges for the
tows, glider, and CFIG.

Gliders require ground crews for
assistance and it is hard to get more than 4 landings /hr.

We did it with the student, the instructor (me), and the tow pilot,
using unassisted takeoffs. Easy in the Blanik on 75'-100' wide pavement.
The first 3 launches were usually with a wing runner, though.

An aircraft
needs no assistance and can easily make 12 or more landings in an hour, and
the cost per landing will be a small fraction of the cost of gliders + tows.

If the discussion and reflection take place between the landings, I
think this would be effective. I know Derek Piggot thinks a motorglider
is ideal for initial training for the reasons mentioned.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org