NDB Holds

Alan,

my notes it
says to work out the timings use 75% of the head / tail wind factor.


Hmm. Why not 100 percent? The way I would do it is to figure out the
percentage the head/tail wind is of my IAS (TAS, if you want to get
precise). Then, I would correct 1 minute by that percentage. From your
notes, your supposed to take 75 percent of that percentage.

In reality, this takes way too much brain power away from controlling
the aircraft. Make intelligent guesses. E.g. your holding speed is 90
knots, your wind component is an estimated 10 knots, so you try a 10
seconds correction.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Alan,


my notes it
says to work out the timings use 75% of the head / tail wind factor.



Hmm. Why not 100 percent? The way I would do it is to figure out the
percentage the head/tail wind is of my IAS (TAS, if you want to get
precise). Then, I would correct 1 minute by that percentage. From your
notes, your supposed to take 75 percent of that percentage.

In reality, this takes way too much brain power away from controlling
the aircraft. Make intelligent guesses. E.g. your holding speed is 90
knots, your wind component is an estimated 10 knots, so you try a 10
seconds correction.


At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor
or check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is designed
for a jet aircraft.

At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor or check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is designed for a jet aircraft.

I wouldn't go that far. We are also building good habits and attitudes
for the future. One day we may be flying jet aircraft, who knows? The
attitudes you start out with are likely to be the attitudes you end up
with, and the skills you learn from day one are the ones that come back
to you in an emergency.

However, yes, there is plenty of room in the hold for a spam can.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor
or check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is
designed for a jet aircraft.


I wouldn't go that far. We are also building good habits and attitudes
for the future. One day we may be flying jet aircraft, who knows? The
attitudes you start out with are likely to be the attitudes you end up
with, and the skills you learn from day one are the ones that come back
to you in an emergency.

I have posted almost exactly the same comments here in the past. Of
course, you are correct. The "recommended" entries are really mandatory
for jet aircraft operating at the max permitted speeds. And, so forth.

However, yes, there is plenty of room in the hold for a spam can.

Exactly.

Jose wrote:
At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor or
check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is designed for a
jet aircraft.

I wouldn't go that far. We are also building good habits and attitudes
for the future.

Right. And a good attitude is to not get bogged down in minutia like
calculating outbound leg times for NDB holds when there's more important
stuff to be thinking about.

What's the weather doing? What's my fuel situation, i.e. how long can I
let ATC park me here before I need to head to my alternate? What is my
best alternate given the current situation? Can I review the approach
plate one more time to make sure I really understand the procedure.

Roy Smith wrote:
Jose wrote:

At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor or
check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is designed for a
jet aircraft.

I wouldn't go that far. We are also building good habits and attitudes
for the future.


Right. And a good attitude is to not get bogged down in minutia like
calculating outbound leg times for NDB holds when there's more important
stuff to be thinking about.

What's the weather doing? What's my fuel situation, i.e. how long can I
let ATC park me here before I need to head to my alternate? What is my
best alternate given the current situation? Can I review the approach
plate one more time to make sure I really understand the procedure.

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Century?

In article , Sam Spade
wrote:

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Century?

Essentially zero. But, if your instructor (or flight school) is dumb
enough to send you for an instrument checkride in an airplane equipped with
an ADF, you may be called upon to demonstrate one. Which means they need
to train you to be able to perform one. Which, of course, is a huge waste
of your time and money, since it's a skill you will never use again after
the checkride.

Which is why, earlier in this thread, I said:

But, the real way to do NBD holds is to tear that piece of crap ADF out of
the panel and train in a GPS-equipped airplane. If your school doesn't
have GPS in their trainers, find another school.

Roy Smith wrote:
In article , Sam Spade
wrote:

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Century?

Essentially zero. But, if your instructor (or flight school) is dumb
enough to send you for an instrument checkride in an airplane equipped with
an ADF, you may be called upon to demonstrate one. Which means they need
to train you to be able to perform one. Which, of course, is a huge waste
of your time and money, since it's a skill you will never use again after
the checkride.


Although I have never been assigned an NDB hold in the U.S, I have been
assigned NDB routes and holds in Canada. Just a couple of months ago, I
was instructed to hold at the Muskoka NDB. A few months earlier, I was
given "expect NDB approach... into Buttonville airport". This airport
is one of the largest GA fields in Toronto and has a perfectly good LOC
approach, but folks up there don't seem to shy away from NDBs.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:12:01 -0700, Sam Spade wrote:

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Centur

On a few occasions, I've held at an NDB, but only one of those occasions
was in the 21st century, and not in the past few years since I've had a
GPS.

I held at the EPM NDB for 1/2 hour or so waiting for weather to improve,
before we had a GPS approach.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 10/28/06 08:24, Sam Spade wrote:
Thomas Borchert wrote:
Alan,


my notes it
says to work out the timings use 75% of the head / tail wind factor.



Hmm. Why not 100 percent? The way I would do it is to figure out the
percentage the head/tail wind is of my IAS (TAS, if you want to get
precise). Then, I would correct 1 minute by that percentage. From your
notes, your supposed to take 75 percent of that percentage.

In reality, this takes way too much brain power away from controlling
the aircraft. Make intelligent guesses. E.g. your holding speed is 90
knots, your wind component is an estimated 10 knots, so you try a 10
seconds correction.


At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor
or check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is designed
for a jet aircraft.

Exactly. I think if you show the inspector that you:

1. consider the crosswind when taking a guess at your outbound and
inbound headings;
2. consider the head/tail wind when taking a guess at your initial
outbound timing;
3. make a reasonable adjustment to your second outbound timing after
seeing what your first inbound leg time was.

he will be impressed.

Note that in all three cases, all that will matter is that you make
the correction in the right direction; the *amount* of the correction
won't matter to them.

I know that during training, I would like to go around the holds over
and over, making minor corrections to try to get the time and heading
to work out perfectly - my instructor would just get bored and make
us move on ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA