VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION

On May 4, 7:37 am, Vince wrote:
Tankfixer wrote:
In article ,
mumbled
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...

Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight
suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West,
JAX or off CVA decks.

TMO

the U-2 flights were cia

Yes, but did they take the photo's of the SA-2 sites from under 500 feet
and in excess of 700 mph ?

No, they didn't

that is correct, but not the point of the discussion

the Military is much better equipped and focused on battlefield
reconnaissance than the CIA

The U-2 was overwhelmingly a CIA project at that time.
Part of the reason was that CIA missions violated the domestic or
municipal law of the countries we were overflying. A U-2 pilot on an
overflight was a spy and could be shot quite legally. No one could be
"ordered" on such a mission.

The low level flights were different. They were clearly belligerent
acts by the US armed forces. As an act of war, anyone shot down was a
POW.

Vince

In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather
extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering.

October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air
Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was
transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12.
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm

and

As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to
build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles,
President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated
with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with
USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124)
President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case
there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF
pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA
pilots who would be considered spies. (125) In the meantime, the JCS
enlisted the support of additional aerial reconnaissance assets. Air
Force RB-47's were brought in to fly ELINT missions around the
periphery of the island along with USN F3D ELINT and EC-121 SIGINT
aircraft. (126)

124) In 1956, SAC rejected Kelly Johnson's U-2 design with General
LeMay quoted as saying he didn't need a glider with no guns or wheels
and if he needed aerial reconnaissance he'd use one of his B-36's. By
the time the U-2 program was approved and placed under SAC, he
understood the importance of having the aircraft because the CIA's
intelligence collection affected his bomber procurement. By 1960, SAC
had its own fleet of 24 U-2's and was using them for peripheral SIGINT
and PHOTINT missions.
(125) Jackson, 116.
(126) Lashmar, 191.



http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS....02byndu-2.htm

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 7:37 am, Vince wrote:
Tankfixer wrote:
In article ,
mumbled
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...
Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights
I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight
suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West,
JAX or off CVA decks.
TMO
the U-2 flights were cia
Yes, but did they take the photo's of the SA-2 sites from under 500 feet
and in excess of 700 mph ?
No, they didn't
that is correct, but not the point of the discussion

the Military is much better equipped and focused on battlefield
reconnaissance than the CIA

The U-2 was overwhelmingly a CIA project at that time.
Part of the reason was that CIA missions violated the domestic or
municipal law of the countries we were overflying. A U-2 pilot on an
overflight was a spy and could be shot quite legally. No one could be
"ordered" on such a mission.

The low level flights were different. They were clearly belligerent
acts by the US armed forces. As an act of war, anyone shot down was a
POW.

Vince

In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather
extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering.

October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air
Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was
transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12.
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm


jane Franklin is a respectable source on Cuba but even her chronolgy
points out

October 15: Analyzing U-2 photographs taken a day earlier, the CIA
informs National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy that the Soviet Union
is constructing sites for intermediate-range nuclear missiles in Cuba.

The report is formt he CIA, not the air force



and

As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to
build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles,
President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated
with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with
USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124)
President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case
there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF
pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA
pilots who would be considered spies. (125)

the problems is that the citation 125 is to

Jackson, Robert. High Cold War: Strategic Air Reconnaissance and the
Electronic Intelligence War. Somerset: Patrick Stephens Limited, 1998.

which is not a primary source
the Avalon project also contains no such document.

Finally as a matter of law the reasoning is ridiculous.

Military officers in peacetime are still spies.


They were still CIA "flights"
conducted by USAF people


Vince