interesting moment yesterday on final

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
m...

Aircraft flying a full pattern do have the right of way.


That's not correct.

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing,
have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the
surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force
an
aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting
to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft
are
approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the
lower
altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this
rule
to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to
overtake
that aircraft.



It is correct. AC 90-66 clairifys it very well, and 91.113 is not in
conflict.


Reporting points should be done in miles at uncontrolled airports.


Why?

Per AC 90-66. 7f . Position reports on CTAF should include distance and
direction from the airport.





Everyone should consider aircraft may be correctly operating without
radio
communications.


Yes, or incorrectly operating with radio communications.


http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...h light=90-66


Did you bother to read any of that? Paragraph 8.k states; "Throughout the
traffic pattern, right-of-way rules apply as stated in FAR Part 91.113."

Yep! No conflict.




http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf


From the Appendix, page 13"

"(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or
while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft
in flight or operating on the surface, except that they
shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft
off the runway surface which has already landed and is
attempting to make way for an aircraft on final
approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching
an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the
lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take
advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is
on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft."


Correct. But an instrument "approach" is an approach, not an instrument
"final".

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

It is correct. AC 90-66 clairifys it very well, and 91.113 is not in
conflict.


What do you believe AC 90-66A clarifies?



Per AC 90-66. 7f . Position reports on CTAF should include distance and
direction from the airport.


It doesn't say reports should be given in miles, it says position reports on
the CTAF should include distance and direction from the airport. Announcing
position over a known fix provides distance and direction and is far more
reliable than an estimate of distance.



Yep! No conflict.


It's your position that "aircraft flying a full pattern do have the right of
way." FAR 91.113(g) states that aircraft on final have the right of way.
I'd call that conflict.



Correct. But an instrument "approach" is an approach, not an instrument
"final".


FAR 91.113 is found among the general flight rules, it does not distinguish
between VFR and IFR operations. Aircraft on final have the right-of-way, it
does not matter how they came to be on final.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

It is correct. AC 90-66 clairifys it very well, and 91.113 is not in
conflict.


What do you believe AC 90-66A clarifies?



That aircraft in the pattern have the right of way. You know, the part you
snipped.


Per AC 90-66. 7f . Position reports on CTAF should include distance and
direction from the airport.


It doesn't say reports should be given in miles, it says position reports
on
the CTAF should include distance and direction from the airport.
Announcing
position over a known fix provides distance and direction and is far more
reliable than an estimate of distance.


IFR fixes provide zero informaiton to a VFR pilot.




Yep! No conflict.


It's your position that "aircraft flying a full pattern do have the right
of way." FAR 91.113(g) states that aircraft on final have the right of
way. I'd call that conflict.


Only because you wish to ignore the FAA recommendations in AC 90-66.
Aircraft entering on a straight in approach should not disrupt traffic in
the pattern.



Correct. But an instrument "approach" is an approach, not an instrument
"final".


FAR 91.113 is found among the general flight rules, it does not
distinguish between VFR and IFR operations. Aircraft on final have the
right-of-way, it does not matter how they came to be on final.


AC 90-66 is crystal clear, you just don't happen to like it.

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

That aircraft in the pattern have the right of way. You know, the part you
snipped.


AC 90-66A does not indicate that aircraft in the pattern have the
right-of-way over aircraft on final.



IFR fixes provide zero informaiton to a VFR pilot.


Is bad information better than no information?



Only because you wish to ignore the FAA recommendations in AC 90-66.
Aircraft entering on a straight in approach should not disrupt traffic in
the pattern.


I'll ignore all recommendations that are discourteous , reduce safety, and
are inconsistent with the FARs. Everybody should.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

That aircraft in the pattern have the right of way. You know, the part
you
snipped.


AC 90-66A does not indicate that aircraft in the pattern have the
right-of-way over aircraft on final.

It does indeed, you just don't happen to like it.





IFR fixes provide zero informaiton to a VFR pilot.


Is bad information better than no information?



Only because you wish to ignore the FAA recommendations in AC 90-66.
Aircraft entering on a straight in approach should not disrupt traffic in
the pattern.


I'll ignore all recommendations that are discourteous , reduce safety, and
are inconsistent with the FARs. Everybody should.

They are none of the above, and nobody should. If you think you are above
following the recommended procedures of the FAA, you are simply unsafe. But
go ahead, as we can be certain you will. Someday, you or some other IR
cowboy like you, will kill someone, and perhaps the FAA with firm things up
a bit.

Is bad information better than no information?

Often it is. IT depends on how bad the information is. "five miles
northeast" when the aircraft is really five point six miles east north
east is "bad information". But I'll find him.

Jose
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