A warm evening, a grass strip, and thou....

On Aug 20, 12:54 am, Jay Honeck wrote:
certainty that I announced that we *were* flying somewhere for dinner,
damn the fatigue.

*cough* fit to fly *cough*

Eh?

Far, far too many people die as a result of both unrecognised and
recognised fatigue related accidents.

An accident may not be directly fatigue induced, but as I'm sure you
are well aware Jay, 99% of accidents are a series of small issues
brought togethor and fatigue is a cmmon member of that series.

When you're fatigued you are not 100% on the ball and thats when you
make mistakes, poor decisions, react slower, and in general get that
little bit closer to making a statistic out of yourself.

I'd hste the group to lose such a vibrant member because he chose to
"damn the fatigue" one to many times is all I'm saying.

"James Sleeman" wrote

I'd hste the group to lose such a vibrant member because he chose to
"damn the fatigue" one to many times is all I'm saying.


I feel certain Jay know the difference between being too tired to fly
safely, and being ragged out after a long day. This was a 17 minute flight,
remember, with another full and current pilot in the front seat with him.
--
Jim in NC

On Aug 20, 2:20 pm, "Morgans" wrote:
I feel certain Jay know the difference between being too tired to fly
safely, and being ragged out after a long day. This was a 17 minute flight,
remember, with another full and current pilot in the front seat with him.

We lost a pilot and passenger locally a few years ago (not fatigue
related, but a similar silent killer, over-confidence), after that,
everybody who knew the pilot well said something like "gee, I wish I'd
said something earlier because there were some troubling aspects of
his flying lately, but I never liked to criticise".

As pilots, IT IS THE JOB OF US ALL to keep our eyes open with regards
to our fellow aviators and to freely, quickly and clearly point out
any possible flaws in thier practice to which they may have become
unaware, no matter how small or insignificant they may seem.

I'm sure Jay was perfectly safe, I'm sure he was well aware of his
level of competence, I'm sure Mary was equally alert and competent,
but Jay mentioned in his post that he was fatigued from work but
"damn[ed] the fatigue" and went flying.

It seemed to me, knowing that fatigue is an insidious killer to which
many have fallen prey, that this decision was something he perhaps
needed to reflect on, to ask himself, "was I really fit to fly."

They answer from Jay's inner conversation was probably, "yes I was
fine", but maybe, just maybe, he might have thought, "now I think
about it, I was pretty tired and I perhaps wasn't flying my best, next
time, I should think harder about it", and if that saves some damage
to an aircraft, or himself, or his lovely wife, or valued children,
then isn't it worth it to point out these little, tiny, things
whenever we see them.

Here endth the lecture.

Here endth the lecture.

I understand precisely what you're saying -- no need to apologize for
lecturing.

There *have* been times when I was simply too beat to fly. Mary has
often deferred flying "duties" (darn!) to me when she was too tired to
fly.

I learned earlier this year (after mountain biking all day on
Washington Island) that now (at age 48) I have physical limitations
that I never faced before, which precludes me from safe flying.
Although I made the flight safely, I found that flying a challenging
approach to a short grass strip was unwise after working out all day
long -- and I won't make that mistake again.

In this case, however, it was that mental "buzzing" that comes from
trying to keep a hundred balls in the air at once. I wasn't
"physically" tired, and the flight served as a pleasant and complete
mental rejuvenator.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

James Sleeman wrote:
On Aug 20, 2:20 pm, "Morgans" wrote:
I feel certain Jay know the difference between being too tired to fly
safely, and being ragged out after a long day. This was a 17 minute flight,
remember, with another full and current pilot in the front seat with him.

We lost a pilot and passenger locally a few years ago (not fatigue
related, but a similar silent killer, over-confidence), after that,
everybody who knew the pilot well said something like "gee, I wish I'd
said something earlier because there were some troubling aspects of
his flying lately, but I never liked to criticise".

As pilots, IT IS THE JOB OF US ALL to keep our eyes open with regards
to our fellow aviators and to freely, quickly and clearly point out
any possible flaws in thier practice to which they may have become
unaware, no matter how small or insignificant they may seem.

I'm sure Jay was perfectly safe, I'm sure he was well aware of his
level of competence, I'm sure Mary was equally alert and competent,
but Jay mentioned in his post that he was fatigued from work but
"damn[ed] the fatigue" and went flying.

It seemed to me, knowing that fatigue is an insidious killer to which
many have fallen prey, that this decision was something he perhaps
needed to reflect on, to ask himself, "was I really fit to fly."

They answer from Jay's inner conversation was probably, "yes I was
fine", but maybe, just maybe, he might have thought, "now I think
about it, I was pretty tired and I perhaps wasn't flying my best, next
time, I should think harder about it", and if that saves some damage
to an aircraft, or himself, or his lovely wife, or valued children,
then isn't it worth it to point out these little, tiny, things
whenever we see them.

Here endth the lecture.

Please allow me to expand on your point just a bit here if I may please.


It goes without saying that a pilot under stress is in no condition to
fly, but tagging this condition to a pilot making a local flight to
"unwind" after a long day dealing with hotel guests might be a bit of a
stretch.
Almost every pilot getting into an airplane will be under some kind of
stress level. It could be nothing more than the guy who gave you the
finger as he passed you on the road on the way to the field, or it could
even be the "personal stress" that most pilot feel when getting ready to
fly.
The point here is that pilots should naturally avoid flying under
excessive stress, but that flying under some degree of stress is
perfectly normal and indeed necessary.
No pilot should get into an airplane totally relaxed. There should
always be an element of stress involved in flying an airplane. It's
working within this normal stress framework that allows a pilot to
function correctly and professionally.
Getting into your private plane to unwind after working all day is not
necessarily an undue stress situation. Getting into the airplane after
experiencing an event that is outside the norm stress wise for a days
work can easily fall into the danger area.
Bottom line here is that Jay, as the pilot, has to know and recognize
where he is on his PERSONAL stress ladder at any given time and fly or
not fly based on that personal assessment.
Where Jay Honeck is safe or not safe to fly based on stress does not
equate with any other pilot other than offering a general "reminder" as
you have done here.
--
Dudley Henriques

No pilot should get into an airplane totally relaxed. There should
always be an element of stress involved in flying an airplane. It's
working within this normal stress framework that allows a pilot to
function correctly and professionally.

Agree 100%. I've seen friends get so "relaxed" about flying that they
start to forgo little details like "pre-flight" and "checking the
gas". Luckily (so far) without dire results. (I've surprised fellow
pilots by pre-flighting before EVERY flight, even if I just landed
five minutes ago.)

After 13 years in the air, though, I've found myself more relaxed
about flying than I *ever* would have believed possible. Part of this
is due to improved equipment -- GPS wasn't around back then -- but a
lot of it is simply due to experience.

Back when I first got my ticket, each flight was a real adventure,
with butterflies and some trepidation -- Would this plane *really*
hold together long enough for me to make it home? -- and flying (for
me) took an amazing amount of mental planning and effort.

Of course, we were renting some pretty rough equipment back then, so
perhaps my fears weren't entirely unfounded -- but most of my stress
was due to inexperience on my part.

Now, after making a few thousand successful flights, you tend to stop
stressing about the wings falling off. Nowadays, I will fly across
several states with less preparation and stress than I used to put
into a hamburger flight -- so one truly *does* have to guard against
taking this aviation thing too casually.

Every now and then I'll be droning along, fat, dumb and happy at 8500
feet, watching the world unfold beneath my wings, utterly relaxed --
when I will suddenly realize PRECISELY what I am doing. I mean, my
God, I'm a mile and a half STRAIGHT UP, in a vehicle made out of
recycled beer cans, behind a single 1940s-era engine! This is
LUNACY!!

Just like *that* my senses are heightened, my stress level goes back
up (appropriately), and I'm once again operating at peak
efficiency...constantly looking for landing fields, scanning the
engine instruments...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

Just like *that* my senses are heightened, my stress level goes back
up (appropriately), and I'm once again operating at peak
efficiency...constantly looking for landing fields, scanning the
engine instruments...


There are several "levels" of "awareness" that can develop over time in
a pilot. The most dangerous is a level of complete relaxation where one
moment in flight passes on to the next moment without any elevation from
that state of relaxation. It's in this state that a pilot gets "caught"
suddenly when something goes wrong. It's here that the adrenalin flows
through a panic state before settling down into whatever training
response is triggered. This takes precious time and this mental state
can literally kill you in an airplane.

There is another level where the pilot mentally prepares himself/herself
for flight; before each and every flight; no matter how trivial or
inconsequential that flight might be....even one trip around the pattern
qualifies.
It's on this level of awareness a pilot should operate at all times when
flying is involved. To reach this level a pilot must literally train
himself/herself to think professionally. It's not easy to reach this
level and many pilots never actually make it. Those who don't make it
end up preparing themselves for flight with no more concern than they
would have preparing to perform a non flying activity. This is a killer
in an airplane.
The level of awareness you want and need as a pilot preparing for flight
is one where the senses are heightened but not overly stressed. You want
to be JUST on the razor edge of "serious concern". You want to be on a
level that "expects" and "anticipates" rather than one that simply reacts.
In other words, when you fly, you should literally at all times be
"looking for trouble".
This is a fine line to draw and as I said, many pilots never actually
reach this level. You need to be constantly alert to things that can
hurt you when flying, and this means you have to teach yourself to
operate on a level that allows you this increased state of stress
without going over the stress line. Going too far into this enhanced
state of alertness can actually have the reverse effect and put you into
over stress which is a extremely bad condition.
Every pilot has to find this "ideal level of alertness" when flying. It
comes easy to some and never to others.
I believe that if every pilot is simply aware right from the start that
seeking a personal mental attitude based on professionalism is the goal
to seek, then half the battle has been won.
The goal is complex. Have fun, relax when flying, but never REALLY
TOTALLY relax when flying. Ride the edge of that razor mentally, and
enjoy yourself!!! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Every now and then I'll be droning along, fat, dumb and happy at 8500
feet, watching the world unfold beneath my wings, utterly relaxed --
when I will suddenly realize PRECISELY what I am doing. I mean, my
God, I'm a mile and a half STRAIGHT UP, in a vehicle made out of
recycled beer cans, behind a single 1940s-era engine! This is
LUNACY!!

Just like *that* my senses are heightened, my stress level goes back
up (appropriately), and I'm once again operating at peak
efficiency...constantly looking for landing fields, scanning the
engine instruments...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

I had that happen to me once on the way to Oshkosh, and again on the
way home... I found myself looking at the wings each time and hoping
that they didn't just suddenly fold up on us, dropping us straight
down.

I know its irrational, but it sure does wake you back up to where you
are and what you are doing! It also makes me wish I had a parachute
(on me or the plane).... :-)

Dean

Morgans wrote:
"James Sleeman" wrote

I'd hste the group to lose such a vibrant member because he chose to
"damn the fatigue" one to many times is all I'm saying.



I feel certain Jay know the difference between being too tired to fly
safely, and being ragged out after a long day. This was a 17 minute flight,
remember, with another full and current pilot in the front seat with him.

Yeah, the second pilot in the plane is a great help most of the time.
When we flew around Australia with a group there were a couple of days I
wasn't really feeling well (I hate getting sick on vacation) so Ron
flew. If I had been single pilot I could have flown, I wasn't THAT
sick, but it was great no feeling like I had to fly.

Margy