Welding question: joining an inner sleeve

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:48:05 -0400, "J.Kahn"
wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote:


So you just do one bead, but make sure you get penetration down to the
lower layer. It really is just an elongated rosette weld.


John


Well,we're back to attempting to get the lower level molten while not
burning away the upper layer. In the case of the rosette weld, I was
told to make a small hole in the upper layer, aim thru the hole, wait
until the lower layer begins to flow, then add filler, ignoring how
far back the upper layer burns back. I'll go practice. Mike

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:53:01 -0500, "Maxwell"
wrote:


"Michael Horowitz" wrote in message
.. .
Please see the sketch at http://members.cox.net/mhorowit/cluster/
Using Oxyacetylene, how do I get the base molten without burning the
two pieces that form the 1/8" gap? Are "chill bars" the only choice?
MikeH

Will your situation allow you to increase the gap? Perhaps heating a little
slower and increasing the gap would work for you.
My experience is the outer sleeve will burn back, but I will try with
a cooler flame. - Mike

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:57:16 -0700, wrote:

On Sep 22, 6:38 am, Fortunat1 wrote:
"Morgans" wrote :



Follow the picture he posted. That is the only recognized, strong and
safe way to make that type of splice. Any other treatment of the
joint is not as strong as it could be, and should be.


Dan


Dan - you seem to be agreeing that treating each side of the gap as a
lap joint is the way to go as opposed to attempting to bridge both
sides while including the inner sleeve. Correct? - Mike

Michael Horowitz wrote in
:

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:43:11 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

"

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, but the photo that Michael put
up of that splice with the slit cut into the outer tube. Is anyone
suggesting that this is a good type of splice for some applications? I
can't see any inherent advantages in this as opposed to the diagonal
type. Or is this just an experiment in welding through a small gap in
the tubing?


OP here - what I was trying to do as easily as possible was to
duplicate the single part of the weld that would give me problems:
getting the inner metal molten without cooking the outer metal
sleeve. I simply cut an 1/8" slot in a piece of tubng, slipped the
inner tube in place and welded the two beads. Yes, I know why a real
weld would be along a 30^ angle, but that wasn't the point of the
exercise, which was to see how to run that bead, whether on the TE of
a split outer tube, or the gap proscribed for a splice by inner
sleeve. - Mike



OK, thanks. I reckoned as much but had to ask!

I tried a few of those myself with the 30 deg cut and they were tough
enough. But I did get a few inches of good weld which does prove they are
possible! For me I found thye clicked along best when I kept the torch in
nice and close and concentrated on getting the inner sleeve melting, just
like the rosette, which are also working fine for me now.

Michael Horowitz wrote in
:

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:48:05 -0400, "J.Kahn"
wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote:


So you just do one bead, but make sure you get penetration down to the
lower layer. It really is just an elongated rosette weld.


John


Well,we're back to attempting to get the lower level molten while not
burning away the upper layer. In the case of the rosette weld, I was
told to make a small hole in the upper layer, aim thru the hole, wait
until the lower layer begins to flow, then add filler, ignoring how
far back the upper layer burns back. I'll go practice. Mike



Yeah, I've been learning those as well. I found that the rod is a great
help here. when the metal underneath starts to go I start adding rod to the
edge of the hole going around the edge and voila! some of them even look
like rosettes.

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:16:50 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote in
:

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:48:05 -0400, "J.Kahn"
wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote:


So you just do one bead, but make sure you get penetration down to the
lower layer. It really is just an elongated rosette weld.


John


Well,we're back to attempting to get the lower level molten while not
burning away the upper layer. In the case of the rosette weld, I was
told to make a small hole in the upper layer, aim thru the hole, wait
until the lower layer begins to flow, then add filler, ignoring how
far back the upper layer burns back. I'll go practice. Mike


I haven't ask or been told whether or not it's considered good
welding, but like trim to someone doing woodwork, filler covers up
blow-thrus -Mike



Yeah, I've been learning those as well. I found that the rod is a great
help here. when the metal underneath starts to go I start adding rod to the
edge of the hole going around the edge and voila! some of them even look
like rosettes.

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:13:26 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote in
:

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:43:11 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

"

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, but the photo that Michael put
up of that splice with the slit cut into the outer tube. Is anyone
suggesting that this is a good type of splice for some applications? I
can't see any inherent advantages in this as opposed to the diagonal
type. Or is this just an experiment in welding through a small gap in
the tubing?


OP here - what I was trying to do as easily as possible was to
duplicate the single part of the weld that would give me problems:
getting the inner metal molten without cooking the outer metal
sleeve. I simply cut an 1/8" slot in a piece of tubng, slipped the
inner tube in place and welded the two beads. Yes, I know why a real
weld would be along a 30^ angle, but that wasn't the point of the
exercise, which was to see how to run that bead, whether on the TE of
a split outer tube, or the gap proscribed for a splice by inner
sleeve. - Mike



OK, thanks. I reckoned as much but had to ask!

I tried a few of those myself with the 30 deg cut and they were tough
enough. But I did get a few inches of good weld which does prove they are
possible! For me I found thye clicked along best when I kept the torch in
nice and close and concentrated on getting the inner sleeve melting, just
like the rosette, which are also working fine for me now.

Someone in another group recommended I read this article -
http://airbum.com/articles/ArticleZenWelding.html
I gotta read it again for comprehension. Good read over coffee.

I normally wear glasses but take them off when I'm working with
goggles. I _think_ I'm seeing things OK, but for $12 I'm going to
visit the drugstore and see what they got. I would like to get my
face closer to the work - Mike

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:16:50 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:


Yeah, I've been learning those as well. I found that the rod is a great
help here. when the metal underneath starts to go I start adding rod to the
edge of the hole going around the edge and voila! some of them even look
like rosettes.

Have you worked with heat sinks? Try this: get a heavy steel washer
with a 3/8" hole. Drill an 1/8" hole in a piece of sheet and lay it
over another sheet - you're forming a flat version of the same thing
you do in preparation of a rosette weld. Now center the washer on the
1/8" hole. The heavy washer will wick away a lot of heat and reduce
the amount the upper sheet burns back. The equivalent for tubing would
be 'chill bars', which I'm thing of trying, but also thinking that's
going over-board - MIke

Michael Horowitz wrote:
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:13:26 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote in
:

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:43:11 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

"

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, but the photo that Michael put
up of that splice with the slit cut into the outer tube. Is anyone
suggesting that this is a good type of splice for some applications? I
can't see any inherent advantages in this as opposed to the diagonal
type. Or is this just an experiment in welding through a small gap in
the tubing?
OP here - what I was trying to do as easily as possible was to
duplicate the single part of the weld that would give me problems:
getting the inner metal molten without cooking the outer metal
sleeve. I simply cut an 1/8" slot in a piece of tubng, slipped the
inner tube in place and welded the two beads. Yes, I know why a real
weld would be along a 30^ angle, but that wasn't the point of the
exercise, which was to see how to run that bead, whether on the TE of
a split outer tube, or the gap proscribed for a splice by inner
sleeve. - Mike


OK, thanks. I reckoned as much but had to ask!

I tried a few of those myself with the 30 deg cut and they were tough
enough. But I did get a few inches of good weld which does prove they are
possible! For me I found thye clicked along best when I kept the torch in
nice and close and concentrated on getting the inner sleeve melting, just
like the rosette, which are also working fine for me now.

Someone in another group recommended I read this article -
http://airbum.com/articles/ArticleZenWelding.html
I gotta read it again for comprehension. Good read over coffee.

I normally wear glasses but take them off when I'm working with
goggles. I _think_ I'm seeing things OK, but for $12 I'm going to
visit the drugstore and see what they got. I would like to get my
face closer to the work - Mike

I use reading glasses of about 1.5 diopter for reading and close work,
but for welding I got some 3 diopter reading glasses from the drug
store. They worked great. Makes a huge difference when you can see
the puddle in detail.

John

Michael Horowitz wrote in
:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:13:26 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote in
m:

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:43:11 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

"

Hope you don't mind me butting in here, but the photo that Michael
put up of that splice with the slit cut into the outer tube. Is
anyone suggesting that this is a good type of splice for some
applications? I can't see any inherent advantages in this as opposed
to the diagonal type. Or is this just an experiment in welding
through a small gap in the tubing?


OP here - what I was trying to do as easily as possible was to
duplicate the single part of the weld that would give me problems:
getting the inner metal molten without cooking the outer metal
sleeve. I simply cut an 1/8" slot in a piece of tubng, slipped the
inner tube in place and welded the two beads. Yes, I know why a real
weld would be along a 30^ angle, but that wasn't the point of the
exercise, which was to see how to run that bead, whether on the TE
of a split outer tube, or the gap proscribed for a splice by inner
sleeve. - Mike



OK, thanks. I reckoned as much but had to ask!

I tried a few of those myself with the 30 deg cut and they were tough
enough. But I did get a few inches of good weld which does prove they
are possible! For me I found thye clicked along best when I kept the
torch in nice and close and concentrated on getting the inner sleeve
melting, just like the rosette, which are also working fine for me
now.

Someone in another group recommended I read this article -
http://airbum.com/articles/ArticleZenWelding.html
I gotta read it again for comprehension. Good read over coffee.

I normally wear glasses but take them off when I'm working with
goggles. I _think_ I'm seeing things OK, but for $12 I'm going to
visit the drugstore and see what they got. I would like to get my
face closer to the work - Mike



What I did was go down to my opticioan and get them to make some lenses
for my goggles (they have clear lenses under some flip down tinted ones)
I can't recommend these highly enough.
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out straight away.