i think I flew into class c airspace accidentally withoutestablishing communication

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...

Which is one of the systems I mentioned to start off with. But when I took
my PPL test ride ADF and GPS weren't options so I shortened it.


You said use of a VOR was in the PP requirements. It's not.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Which is one of the systems I mentioned to start off with. But when I took
my PPL test ride ADF and GPS weren't options so I shortened it.


You said use of a VOR was in the PP requirements. It's not.




It was for me.

But had you read the thread (and I know you did) you would have
understood that I was countering the argument of a student pilot that
basically wrote that non-instrument pilots shouldn't be using any
electronic navigation system as primary navigation. But I'm also sure
you knew this as well and just like starting arguments.

On Jan 29, 9:30*am, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Which is one of the systems I mentioned to start off with. But when I took
my PPL test ride ADF and GPS weren't options so I shortened it.

You said use of a VOR was in the PP requirements. *It's not.

It was for me.

But had you read the thread (and I know you did) you would have
understood that I was countering the argument of a student pilot that
basically wrote that non-instrument pilots shouldn't be using any
electronic navigation system as primary navigation. But I'm also sure
you knew this as well and just like starting arguments.

Hi 601,

So you are suggestigng that electronics should be the primary nav tool
(why then do we spend soooo much time on visual navigation during
training??) Do you check your GPS by your visual Nav (i.e. GPS is
your primary system and visual your backup)? Using a map and brain is
a good system and not subject to any of the millions of failure modes
possible in the electronics of GPS. Now IFR is another game entirely
but if your eyes are outside the cockpit how do you use GPS ;-)

Cheers

GPS should be your primary means of navigation. It is the most accurate
means of navigation available. As for the inside the cockpit vs. outside
the cockpit question, you don't stare at the GPS any more then you stare at
the airspeed indicator,vsi or compass. You need to back up the GPS work
with the chart and keeping a idea of where you are but use the best tool for
the job and GPS is that. You spend so much time learning it because it's
hard and requires a great deal of practice to develop skills at it. Even
when you are using ded reckoning as your primary means of navigation you are
using other instruments such as the whiskey compass, airspeed indicator and
clock to judge your location.

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 9:30 am, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Which is one of the systems I mentioned to start off with. But when I
took
my PPL test ride ADF and GPS weren't options so I shortened it.

You said use of a VOR was in the PP requirements. It's not.

It was for me.

But had you read the thread (and I know you did) you would have
understood that I was countering the argument of a student pilot that
basically wrote that non-instrument pilots shouldn't be using any
electronic navigation system as primary navigation. But I'm also sure
you knew this as well and just like starting arguments.

Hi 601,

So you are suggestigng that electronics should be the primary nav tool
(why then do we spend soooo much time on visual navigation during
training??) Do you check your GPS by your visual Nav (i.e. GPS is
your primary system and visual your backup)? Using a map and brain is
a good system and not subject to any of the millions of failure modes
possible in the electronics of GPS. Now IFR is another game entirely
but if your eyes are outside the cockpit how do you use GPS ;-)

Cheers

"John" wrote in
news:mhEnj.5472$z_6.1509@trnddc06:

GPS should be your primary means of navigation.


Nope.



It is the most
accurate means of navigation available. As for the inside the cockpit
vs. outside the cockpit question, you don't stare at the GPS any more
then you stare at the airspeed indicator,vsi or compass.


Yes you do.




Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"John" wrote in
news:mhEnj.5472$z_6.1509@trnddc06:

GPS should be your primary means of navigation.


Nope.



It is the most
accurate means of navigation available. As for the inside the cockpit
vs. outside the cockpit question, you don't stare at the GPS any more
then you stare at the airspeed indicator,vsi or compass.


Yes you do.



Bertie

Bull$hit Bertie. If you are Bertie.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote in news:13pufkhth41bt33
@news.supernews.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"John" wrote in
news:mhEnj.5472$z_6.1509@trnddc06:

GPS should be your primary means of navigation.


Nope.



It is the most
accurate means of navigation available. As for the inside the cockpit
vs. outside the cockpit question, you don't stare at the GPS any more
then you stare at the airspeed indicator,vsi or compass.


Yes you do.



Bertie

Bull$hit Bertie. If you are Bertie.


It's acccurate, but it should be an overlay. I'm getting to see a lot of
pro pilots who overuse that crap. They have no idea where they are. They're
not running pictures in their heads...They're buried in the boxes.


Bertie

WingFlaps wrote:

Hi 601,

So you are suggestigng that electronics should be the primary nav tool
(why then do we spend soooo much time on visual navigation during
training??) Do you check your GPS by your visual Nav (i.e. GPS is
your primary system and visual your backup)? Using a map and brain is
a good system and not subject to any of the millions of failure modes
possible in the electronics of GPS. Now IFR is another game entirely
but if your eyes are outside the cockpit how do you use GPS ;-)

Cheers


I'm not saying anything of the sort but I'm also saying that there are
times in VFR flight where they may have to be.

On Jan 30, 3:55*am, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
WingFlaps wrote:
Hi 601,

So you are suggestigng that electronics should be the primary nav tool
(why then do we spend soooo much time on visual navigation during
training??) *Do you check your GPS by your visual Nav (i.e. GPS is
your primary system and visual your backup)? Using a map and brain is
a good system and not subject to any of the millions of failure modes
possible in the electronics of GPS. Now IFR is another game entirely
but if your eyes are outside the cockpit how do you use GPS ;-)

Cheers

I'm not saying anything of the sort but I'm also saying that there are
times in VFR flight where they may have to be.

Sorry I must have misunderstood your saying:
"I was countering the argument of a student pilot that basically
wrote
that non-instrument pilots shouldn't be using any electronic
navigation
system as primary navigation."

I was of course talking about pure VFR and am well aware that one may
require IFR skills at times. My concern is that the color GPS screens
are far too seductive and really do stop you keeping a mental
reference on a VFR chart. The trouble is, if you get too out of sync.
with the chart it's damn hard to find yourself -at least for me. Of
course you can always call up ATC and admit you are lost... :-o
That said, provided you can stop and think time and heading from last
known position seems to generally get you in the right "square". As
for PPL test, I've not seen a requirement for using electronic aids
and the test does not involve an actual Xcountry and the Xcountries I
have completed did not use any electronic aids (the VOR was INOP). I
do know how to tune in a VOR and find a radial but never actually used
it -I'm too busy looking out the window (and that's why I fly)...

Cheers

Cheers

SSR without using paart of the traaining requires hood time an...

WingFlaps wrote:

I was of course talking about pure VFR and am well aware that one may
require IFR skills at times. My concern is that the color GPS screens
are far too seductive and really do stop you keeping a mental
reference on a VFR chart. The trouble is, if you get too out of sync.
with the chart it's damn hard to find yourself -at least for me. Of
course you can always call up ATC and admit you are lost... :-o
That said, provided you can stop and think time and heading from last
known position seems to generally get you in the right "square". As
for PPL test, I've not seen a requirement for using electronic aids
and the test does not involve an actual Xcountry and the Xcountries I
have completed did not use any electronic aids (the VOR was INOP). I
do know how to tune in a VOR and find a radial but never actually used
it -I'm too busy looking out the window (and that's why I fly)...

Cheers

Cheers

SSR without using paart of the traaining requires hood time an...


You better start practicing because the requirement is there. Now I
don't know where you are in your training and will admit that the head
up or down issue is greater for a student or new pilot but there is no
reason for you not to be able to check a moving map with any more
difficulty than checking your altimeter or ASI. IMNSHO Moving Map GPS
have done more for the positive for situational awareness than anything
since windshields.

As far as the checkride not having a real XC flight in it. Let me tell
you how mine went.

Sit and plan a cross country. He said make sure we have a checkpoint
around some little town (don't remember which) that was about 20 miles
away. We took off and flew it like it was a XC using a VOR and after a
while he reached over and covered up the CDI for on the VOR I then tuned
the ADF for the outbound course and followed that a while then he
reached over and covered that up. When we got to the check point he
ended the XC portion of the ride by pulling power and saying, "Oops your
engine just failed."

F. TASK: RADIO COMMUNICATIONS, NAVIGATION
SYSTEMS/FACILITIES, AND RADAR SERVICES
(ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, FAA-H-8083-15, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to radio communications,
navigation systems/facilities, and radar services available for use
during flight solely by reference to instruments.
2. Selects the proper frequency and identifies the appropriate facility.
3. Follows verbal instructions and/or navigation systems/facilities for
guidance.
4. Determines the minimum safe altitude.
5. Maintains altitude, ±200 feet (60 meters); maintains heading, ±20°;
maintains airspeed, ±10 knots.