i think I flew into class c airspace accidentally withoutestablishing communication

I still maintain that it is imperative to have a course-line plotted
on a paper chart for all but the shortest VFR flights.

Consider the VFR over the top flight whose pilot hasn't plotted the
course on a paper chart and suffers a sudden electrical system
failure. Terrestrial landmarks are obscured by the undercast, so it's
not possible to estimate bearings from them. Barring the use of hand
held electronics, how is he to ascertain his current position and
route to a safe landing?

I pull out my portable GPS and determine my best option.

Ron Lee

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:32:56 GMT, (Ron Lee)
wrote in :


I still maintain that it is imperative to have a course-line plotted
on a paper chart for all but the shortest VFR flights.

Consider the VFR over the top flight whose pilot hasn't plotted the
course on a paper chart and suffers a sudden electrical system
failure. Terrestrial landmarks are obscured by the undercast, so it's
not possible to estimate bearings from them. Barring the use of hand
held electronics, how is he to ascertain his current position and
route to a safe landing?

I pull out my portable GPS and determine my best option.

Ron Lee

I would say that a portable GPS qualifies as hand held electronics.

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:32:56 GMT, (Ron Lee)
wrote in :


I still maintain that it is imperative to have a course-line plotted
on a paper chart for all but the shortest VFR flights.

Consider the VFR over the top flight whose pilot hasn't plotted the
course on a paper chart and suffers a sudden electrical system
failure. Terrestrial landmarks are obscured by the undercast, so it's
not possible to estimate bearings from them. Barring the use of hand
held electronics, how is he to ascertain his current position and
route to a safe landing?

I pull out my portable GPS and determine my best option.

Ron Lee

I would say that a portable GPS qualifies as hand held electronics.



Of course you would.


Bertie

On Jan 29, 9:30*am, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Which is one of the systems I mentioned to start off with. But when I took
my PPL test ride ADF and GPS weren't options so I shortened it.

You said use of a VOR was in the PP requirements. *It's not.

It was for me.

But had you read the thread (and I know you did) you would have
understood that I was countering the argument of a student pilot that
basically wrote that non-instrument pilots shouldn't be using any
electronic navigation system as primary navigation. But I'm also sure
you knew this as well and just like starting arguments.

Hi 601,

So you are suggestigng that electronics should be the primary nav tool
(why then do we spend soooo much time on visual navigation during
training??) Do you check your GPS by your visual Nav (i.e. GPS is
your primary system and visual your backup)? Using a map and brain is
a good system and not subject to any of the millions of failure modes
possible in the electronics of GPS. Now IFR is another game entirely
but if your eyes are outside the cockpit how do you use GPS ;-)

Cheers

GPS should be your primary means of navigation. It is the most accurate
means of navigation available. As for the inside the cockpit vs. outside
the cockpit question, you don't stare at the GPS any more then you stare at
the airspeed indicator,vsi or compass. You need to back up the GPS work
with the chart and keeping a idea of where you are but use the best tool for
the job and GPS is that. You spend so much time learning it because it's
hard and requires a great deal of practice to develop skills at it. Even
when you are using ded reckoning as your primary means of navigation you are
using other instruments such as the whiskey compass, airspeed indicator and
clock to judge your location.

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 9:30 am, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Which is one of the systems I mentioned to start off with. But when I
took
my PPL test ride ADF and GPS weren't options so I shortened it.

You said use of a VOR was in the PP requirements. It's not.

It was for me.

But had you read the thread (and I know you did) you would have
understood that I was countering the argument of a student pilot that
basically wrote that non-instrument pilots shouldn't be using any
electronic navigation system as primary navigation. But I'm also sure
you knew this as well and just like starting arguments.

Hi 601,

So you are suggestigng that electronics should be the primary nav tool
(why then do we spend soooo much time on visual navigation during
training??) Do you check your GPS by your visual Nav (i.e. GPS is
your primary system and visual your backup)? Using a map and brain is
a good system and not subject to any of the millions of failure modes
possible in the electronics of GPS. Now IFR is another game entirely
but if your eyes are outside the cockpit how do you use GPS ;-)

Cheers

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...

You said use of a VOR was in the PP requirements. It's not.

It was for me.


No it wasn't.



But had you read the thread (and I know you did) you would have understood
that I was countering the argument of a student pilot that basically wrote
that non-instrument pilots shouldn't be using any electronic navigation
system as primary navigation. But I'm also sure you knew this as well and
just like starting arguments.


What you're sure of is incorrect.

"John" wrote in
news:mhEnj.5472$z_6.1509@trnddc06:

GPS should be your primary means of navigation.


Nope.



It is the most
accurate means of navigation available. As for the inside the cockpit
vs. outside the cockpit question, you don't stare at the GPS any more
then you stare at the airspeed indicator,vsi or compass.


Yes you do.




Bertie

Morgans wrote:

Not that I would disagree with what you said above, g but what if the
plane the pilot wants to take the test in does not have a VOR reciever in
it? Can that plane be used, or do you have to find a different plane to
take the test in?

I never had seen that question asked or answered around here before.


I don't know the practical test standard has the part in it about
showing the skills to use electronic navigation. While any of the
requirements could be met with any number of systems, ADF, VOR, GPS,
Loran. I have not a clue as to how you would do it in say a Cub that
didn't have any.

WingFlaps wrote:

Hi 601,

So you are suggestigng that electronics should be the primary nav tool
(why then do we spend soooo much time on visual navigation during
training??) Do you check your GPS by your visual Nav (i.e. GPS is
your primary system and visual your backup)? Using a map and brain is
a good system and not subject to any of the millions of failure modes
possible in the electronics of GPS. Now IFR is another game entirely
but if your eyes are outside the cockpit how do you use GPS ;-)

Cheers


I'm not saying anything of the sort but I'm also saying that there are
times in VFR flight where they may have to be.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"John" wrote in
news:mhEnj.5472$z_6.1509@trnddc06:

GPS should be your primary means of navigation.


Nope.



It is the most
accurate means of navigation available. As for the inside the cockpit
vs. outside the cockpit question, you don't stare at the GPS any more
then you stare at the airspeed indicator,vsi or compass.


Yes you do.



Bertie

Bull$hit Bertie. If you are Bertie.