About Stall Psychology and Pilots

A point that is critical to make here is that it's not necessary that
you actually fly outside the 30/60 on any constant basis for you to be
comfortable there. What IS important is that although the vast majority
of your flying will remain inside the 30/60 zone, your training has
resulted in your not being uncomfortable outside your normal area.
...
Dudley Henriques

I'm probably much luckier than many in that my club has both an
Aerobat and an instructor available with an aerobatics rating (or
endorsement, whatever it's called). She has me working through the
Kershner book as a prereq. I plan for a 5 or 6 hour course this April/
May.

Speaking directly to the discomfort outside of 30/60: I had moderate
nerves flying slow at first, but after a time or two of dual I found
myself settled. I became at ease with power-off stalls, as the
aircraft just wasn't doing any bucking or dipping. But I didn't get
comfortable with power-on -- even though I was comfortable in the
reverse power curve in steady slow flight with the stall horn buzzing
constantly. Still, solo I was quite nervous with power-on stalls. When
it came time to really practice that before the checkride I had a hard
time finding the same calm place I was at with power-off stalls. The
power-on has a harder break in the Aerobat; I had trouble holding
course and keeping coordinated. On one flight I got rather exasperated
with myself and thought "dang it, this is an airplane, it's okay if it
banks and pitches and rolls about!", then, after doing some clearing
turns I did some steeper banks while power-off in a moderately steep
nose down attitude (less than 30 -- but definitely far from straight
and level).

I kept doing that until I settled down. Even though I knew before I
did those steeper maneuvers that I could recover from them (they were
"unusual attitudes"), nevertheless ACTUALLY performing them and
recovering made a huge difference to my comfort level.

After than I was able to do better power-on stalls and not have the
nerves about when the plane would suddenly lose lift. They weren't
perfect but I didn't have the nerves anymore.

By the way, though the checkride DE did not make be do a power-on to
full stall break, my instructor always did. In retrospect, though it
was more uncomfortable at first, I'm glad she always made me do to a
full break stall. If I didn't, she'd say "let's do that again", rather
sternly.

Oddly, I was more frightened of the spin from power-on than power off
(which may be reasonable, I'm not sure); even though the two spins she
demonstrated for me were done power-off. I think maybe because I felt
it was easier to stay coordinated power-off, without all those extra
precession and p-factor effects twisting the plane, thus was at lower
risk to a flight condition I had not myself recovered from.

For me there's a mental wall of nerves/fear when I have not done a
manuever myself -- even if I know how in theory. For spin, PARE. But I
haven't done it; thus, a wall exists that I have to bust through.

That is one big motivator for Aerobatic training, but not the only.
All told, I just want to understand control inputs to make the plane
do what I want it to do regardless of my orientation in the sky.

wrote:
A point that is critical to make here is that it's not necessary that
you actually fly outside the 30/60 on any constant basis for you to be
comfortable there. What IS important is that although the vast majority
of your flying will remain inside the 30/60 zone, your training has
resulted in your not being uncomfortable outside your normal area.
...
Dudley Henriques

I'm probably much luckier than many in that my club has both an
Aerobat and an instructor available with an aerobatics rating (or
endorsement, whatever it's called). She has me working through the
Kershner book as a prereq. I plan for a 5 or 6 hour course this April/
May.

Speaking directly to the discomfort outside of 30/60: I had moderate
nerves flying slow at first, but after a time or two of dual I found
myself settled. I became at ease with power-off stalls, as the
aircraft just wasn't doing any bucking or dipping. But I didn't get
comfortable with power-on -- even though I was comfortable in the
reverse power curve in steady slow flight with the stall horn buzzing
constantly. Still, solo I was quite nervous with power-on stalls. When
it came time to really practice that before the checkride I had a hard
time finding the same calm place I was at with power-off stalls. The
power-on has a harder break in the Aerobat; I had trouble holding
course and keeping coordinated. On one flight I got rather exasperated
with myself and thought "dang it, this is an airplane, it's okay if it
banks and pitches and rolls about!", then, after doing some clearing
turns I did some steeper banks while power-off in a moderately steep
nose down attitude (less than 30 -- but definitely far from straight
and level).

I kept doing that until I settled down. Even though I knew before I
did those steeper maneuvers that I could recover from them (they were
"unusual attitudes"), nevertheless ACTUALLY performing them and
recovering made a huge difference to my comfort level.

After than I was able to do better power-on stalls and not have the
nerves about when the plane would suddenly lose lift. They weren't
perfect but I didn't have the nerves anymore.

By the way, though the checkride DE did not make be do a power-on to
full stall break, my instructor always did. In retrospect, though it
was more uncomfortable at first, I'm glad she always made me do to a
full break stall. If I didn't, she'd say "let's do that again", rather
sternly.

Oddly, I was more frightened of the spin from power-on than power off
(which may be reasonable, I'm not sure); even though the two spins she
demonstrated for me were done power-off. I think maybe because I felt
it was easier to stay coordinated power-off, without all those extra
precession and p-factor effects twisting the plane, thus was at lower
risk to a flight condition I had not myself recovered from.

For me there's a mental wall of nerves/fear when I have not done a
manuever myself -- even if I know how in theory. For spin, PARE. But I
haven't done it; thus, a wall exists that I have to bust through.

That is one big motivator for Aerobatic training, but not the only.
All told, I just want to understand control inputs to make the plane
do what I want it to do regardless of my orientation in the sky.

Your assessment of your entire situation sounds completely normal to me
in every respect. It's a healthy attitude, and as well a good summation
based on sound principle.
You're right. Power on stalls have a natural tendency to make newbies
more nervous than power off. The nose attitude is generally higher, it's
louder, (this is a factor BTW), the break is cleaner and more sudden,
and the recovery can seem hurried to a newbie who is experiencing the
recovery under stress.
This can be partially addressed by allowing the aircraft to slow as the
nose is raised to normal climb speed before climb power is applied.
This will generally cause the break with a lower nose attitude which can
show an immediate improving effect on a newbie.

One thing that will definitely help you develop some added confidence
doing power on stalls is in actively changing your attitude up front
about them.
Think about this for a second. You know what to expect, and you know the
airplane will recover with normal recovery control application, so the
only thing left that is contributing to your apprehension is the stall
itself.
Think for a moment what would happen if instead of getting that sudden
adrenalin flow you have been experiencing as your system reacts as the
stall breaks, you were instead mentally and physically AHEAD of the
stall break and now EXPECTING it, and more importantly, WANTING IT!
You have just changed your entire interface with the stall. When it
happens, your system is waiting for it; you react as trained, and
recover the airplane.
The ingredient that has been added to your equation is simply EXPECTATION.
You do several power on stalls in this frame of mind and I guarantee
that you will not be apprehensive again when dealing with power on stalls.

Just something to think about before you fly again :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Think for a moment what would happen if instead of getting that sudden
adrenalin flow you have been experiencing as your system reacts as the
stall breaks, you were instead mentally and physically AHEAD of the
stall break and now EXPECTING it, and more importantly, WANTING IT!
You have just changed your entire interface with the stall. When it
happens, your system is waiting for it; you react as trained, and
recover the airplane.
...
Just something to think about before you fly again :-))

Dudley Henriques-

Thanks, this sounds like a really good approach to try.

I'll give it a shot next time I'm up & let you know the results.

wrote:
Think for a moment what would happen if instead of getting that sudden
adrenalin flow you have been experiencing as your system reacts as the
stall breaks, you were instead mentally and physically AHEAD of the
stall break and now EXPECTING it, and more importantly, WANTING IT!
You have just changed your entire interface with the stall. When it
happens, your system is waiting for it; you react as trained, and
recover the airplane.
...
Just something to think about before you fly again :-))

Dudley Henriques-

Thanks, this sounds like a really good approach to try.

I'll give it a shot next time I'm up & let you know the results.


I'll be here....unless of course my wife has conned me into doing yard
work again!!! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
...
You're right. Power on stalls have a natural tendency to make newbies more
nervous than power off. The nose attitude is generally higher, it's louder,
(this is a factor BTW), the break is cleaner and more sudden, and the
recovery can seem hurried to a newbie who is experiencing the recovery
under stress.

Are you familiar with what Derrik Piggott has written about some peoples
sensitivity to reduced G forces? It used to be on-line but I can't find a
copy anymore.

But his theory is that some people react very poorly to reduced G and will
can attempt to "brace" themself to avoid falling which can result in an
accident when stalling at a low altitude...

I'll have to keep looking - it was an interesting read for me since my
youngest just HATES even things like elevators or driving over a bit of a
hill (reduced G situations)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
...
You're right. Power on stalls have a natural tendency to make newbies
more nervous than power off. The nose attitude is generally higher,
it's louder, (this is a factor BTW), the break is cleaner and more
sudden, and the recovery can seem hurried to a newbie who is
experiencing the recovery under stress.

Are you familiar with what Derrik Piggott has written about some peoples
sensitivity to reduced G forces? It used to be on-line but I can't find
a copy anymore.

But his theory is that some people react very poorly to reduced G and
will can attempt to "brace" themself to avoid falling which can result
in an accident when stalling at a low altitude...

I'll have to keep looking - it was an interesting read for me since my
youngest just HATES even things like elevators or driving over a bit of
a hill (reduced G situations)

Haven't seen this specific report, but the symptom is a common one and
something every good instructor feels out carefully in the beginning
stages of a newbies training.
I've often said to new CFI's that probably the most important time they
will ever spend with a new student is in that first few hours of
exposure with that student. It's during this time the instructor has to
evaluate exactly how he/she will interface with that specific student,
and also during the first hour of dual, just where a specific student is
comfort wise in the airplane.
Instructors who fail to make these assessments do great harm to
themselves AND their students.


--
Dudley Henriques

Are you familiar with what Derrik Piggott has written about some peoples
sensitivity to reduced G forces? It used to be on-line but I can't find
a copy anymore.


I haven't heard of this study but will suggest a technique recommended
by an instructor who was also a downhill skiier -- instead of tensing
up and "backing away" from the "fall", lean forward and go with it.

As Dudley said, prepare for it in your head. The physical corollary is
to lean forward a tiny bit.

Try it next time you're on a roller coaster.

Dan

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote in message
news:nfWdnZsrSOkXpiranZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
...
You're right. Power on stalls have a natural tendency to make newbies
more nervous than power off. The nose attitude is generally higher, it's
louder, (this is a factor BTW), the break is cleaner and more sudden, and
the recovery can seem hurried to a newbie who is experiencing the
recovery under stress.

Are you familiar with what Derrik Piggott has written about some peoples
sensitivity to reduced G forces? It used to be on-line but I can't find a
copy anymore.

But his theory is that some people react very poorly to reduced G and will
can attempt to "brace" themself to avoid falling which can result in an
accident when stalling at a low altitude...

I'll have to keep looking - it was an interesting read for me since my
youngest just HATES even things like elevators or driving over a bit of a
hill (reduced G situations)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

I think that Google found it for me and the spelling of the author's first
name is Derek The article is at:
http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/Clues/SDO.html

Peter

I think that Google found it for me and the spelling of the author's first
name is Derek *The article is at:http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/Clues/SDO.html

Peter-

Wow, this is excellent. Thanks!

wrote in message
...
I think that Google found it for me and the spelling of the author's first
name is Derek The article is
at:http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/Clues/SDO.html

Peter-

Wow, this is excellent. Thanks!

---------------------------------

Well, I printed it out and read it and it was a great article. But, about
three quarters of the way through it, I found that it was not the originally
requested treatise, which I could only find offered in printed form. That
one appears to be: "Sub-gravity Sensations and Gliding Accidents" 1994 by
Derek Piggott, and is available from the Soaring Society of America amoung
other places.

Peter