gun discharge in cockpit.

"Roger" wrote in message
news
And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
9mm?

It would be very difficult to find a trap gun used for competition
that has a safety. If it came with one it will have been removed.
When one target may be worth a $10, $1000 or $10,000 and forgetting to
release the safety is a lost target you don't have safetys. The Glock
does not have a safety except for a lever in the trigger.

Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an
appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).

When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd practice
taking the safety off during the draw.

On a trap range, I would imagine that once you took your stance, you'd thumb
off the safty, then call for the bird?

On Mar 24, 9:05 pm, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:

Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an
appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).

The DAO pistol trigger safety has universal acceptance as a "safety,"
thus the wide range of models and calibers employing the trigger
safety.

Please name one range that denies Glock, S&W M&P, or Sig DAK users
shooting privileges.

When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd practice
taking the safety off during the draw.

Wait -- you fired "combat" competition with safety on heading into the
scenario? Were you shooting a 1911? Otherwise, so many models have
such cumbersome safeties (the Berretta 9mm M9, for example), that it's
only useful as a sop to the easily frightened.

If you did as you say, you'll know that Jeff Cooper advocated cocked
and locked, Condition 1 carry with a 1911. It doesn't get any closer
to ready to fire than this setup.


Dan Mc

"Dan" wrote in message
...
On Mar 24, 9:05 pm, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:

Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an
appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).

The DAO pistol trigger safety has universal acceptance as a "safety,"
thus the wide range of models and calibers employing the trigger
safety.


The Glock, Sig, Revolvers, etc., are considered to have an appropriate
safety.

Please name one range that denies Glock, S&W M&P, or Sig DAK users
shooting privileges.

Re-read my statement.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:05:43 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote in message
news
And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
9mm?

It would be very difficult to find a trap gun used for competition
that has a safety. If it came with one it will have been removed.
When one target may be worth a $10, $1000 or $10,000 and forgetting to
release the safety is a lost target you don't have safetys. The Glock
does not have a safety except for a lever in the trigger.

Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an

In a way a revolver does as it must be cocked for single action and
takes a hefty trigger pull in double action unless it's been reworked.
OTOH the DAO Glock as well as the H&Ks only have about a 2 to 2.5#
pull. I don't remember if the H&K does but the Glock does not have a
true safety except that little mechanism in the center of the trigger.
It does not have a grip safety either. Both are standard issue law
enforcement arms so you will find many on local ranges.
Unlike the old 45 or even S&W 45 these are carried with a round in the
chamber.

appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).

When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd practice
taking the safety off during the draw.

Combat is an entirely different game including changing magazines. In
the old days they'd only let us use 45s, now I believe the 9mm and 40
cal are both permitted.


On a trap range, I would imagine that once you took your stance, you'd thumb
off the safty, then call for the bird?

You are unlikely to find a shotgun with a safety on a trap range
although a few Over and unders *may* have them.. The operation is
rigidly controlled. On a trap field you have 5 shooters basically
side by side and about 12 feet apart (I forget the specific distance
on the 16 yard line. Handicap is done a far back as 27 yards from the
trap house). You stand in position with the barrel pointed down range
and the action open. Shooting is done in rotation, 5 shots (one at a
time in rotation) from each position. When it comes your turn to
shoot and only then (regardless of the type of action) you place a
round in the chamber, close the action, mount the shotgun to your
shoulder and then call for a target.

Close an action when it's not your turn to shoot and you will be
escorted off the range. You may also lose your membership in the state
or national organization and without that you can't shoot. There is a
lot of money involved in trap shooting, in entrance fees, shells, and
fees for shooting for "the money". There's too much money at stake to
throw it all away.
by not playing by the rules. It's quite easy to have between $300 and
$500 invested in *each* event. 16 yard events usually consist of two
100 target events combined while handicap events are normally 100
targets each.

I've competed, coached, and played range officer, just not all at the
same time.

In the case of doubles where two clay targets are thrown at the same
time you do load two shells, but again the action is not closed until
it's your turn to shoot. Most doubles are shot with over and under
double barrels. A few opt for the much less expensive semi autos and
pumps, but they are by far in the minority. Few are willing to risk a
malfunction. For singles the old Winchester model 12 pump is by far
the most popular used as a single shot. That is what I used for 16
yard and handicap. Modified choke for 16 and full for 25 yards and
back. I've put well over 200,000 shells through that old shotgun.

There are some very expensive and fantastic shotgun sets available.
They come with the stock and action, plus at least three different
length single shot barrels and one or two sets of over and under
double barrels. (different chokes) some have interchangeable chokes.
I've not seen one of these sets that even had a provision for a
safety. I'd love one of those sets just to have it although I no
longer compete.



Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:05:43 -0700, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote in message
news
And how pray tell do you do this with a model 12 trap gun or Glock
9mm?

It would be very difficult to find a trap gun used for competition
that has a safety. If it came with one it will have been removed.
When one target may be worth a $10, $1000 or $10,000 and forgetting to
release the safety is a lost target you don't have safetys. The Glock
does not have a safety except for a lever in the trigger.

Neither does a revolver, but any range that allows any weapon without an

In a way a revolver does as it must be cocked for single action and
takes a hefty trigger pull in double action unless it's been reworked.
OTOH the DAO Glock as well as the H&Ks only have about a 2 to 2.5#
pull. I don't remember if the H&K does but the Glock does not have a
true safety except that little mechanism in the center of the trigger.
It does not have a grip safety either. Both are standard issue law
enforcement arms so you will find many on local ranges.
Unlike the old 45 or even S&W 45 these are carried with a round in the
chamber.

appropraite safety is asking for a lawsuit (IME).

When I used to shoot pistol competition (Combat - IDPA, IPSC), we'd
practice
taking the safety off during the draw.

Combat is an entirely different game including changing magazines. In
the old days they'd only let us use 45s, now I believe the 9mm and 40
cal are both permitted.


On a trap range, I would imagine that once you took your stance, you'd
thumb
off the safty, then call for the bird?

You are unlikely to find a shotgun with a safety on a trap range
although a few Over and unders *may* have them.. The operation is
rigidly controlled. On a trap field you have 5 shooters basically
side by side and about 12 feet apart (I forget the specific distance
on the 16 yard line. Handicap is done a far back as 27 yards from the
trap house). You stand in position with the barrel pointed down range
and the action open. Shooting is done in rotation, 5 shots (one at a
time in rotation) from each position. When it comes your turn to
shoot and only then (regardless of the type of action) you place a
round in the chamber, close the action, mount the shotgun to your
shoulder and then call for a target.

I see...my frame of reference is Sporting Clays and that is with a Browning
Auto. For me, it's just natural to engage the safety until I call the bird
and that's from the "butt low" position. In picturing the sequence in my
mind, I disengage the safety as I call for the target. Even at that, there
can be about a two or three second delay before the target flys/runs.

Now, as to O/U's, I have had my eye on a Beretta 686...


Close an action when it's not your turn to shoot and you will be
escorted off the range. You may also lose your membership in the state
or national organization and without that you can't shoot. There is a
lot of money involved in trap shooting, in entrance fees, shells, and
fees for shooting for "the money". There's too much money at stake to
throw it all away.
by not playing by the rules. It's quite easy to have between $300 and
$500 invested in *each* event. 16 yard events usually consist of two
100 target events combined while handicap events are normally 100
targets each.

I've competed, coached, and played range officer, just not all at the
same time.

In the case of doubles where two clay targets are thrown at the same
time you do load two shells, but again the action is not closed until
it's your turn to shoot.

Got 'cha!

My point-of-reference is Combat Pistol, and there, when you're next, you
load the weapon (all my combat guns are 1911 based), load a round in the
chamber, holster the weapon, then remove the magazine and add a round to
replace the one you loaded into the chamber.

Then you take your first position, and on the buzzer/timer, you draw
(disengaging the safety in the same move, and begin
shooting/moving/shooting....until the stage is over. It's not uncommon to
shoot 20-30 rounds per stage which means you often do one or two reloads
WHILE YOU'RE MOVING.