ATC

Jay Maynard wrote:
On 2008-03-28, Jim Logajan wrote:
The poster said these were ATC transmissions, not internal company
communications. Since ATC doesn't concern itself with weight,
balance, or any other flight performance factors, your explanation is
almost certainly wrong.

You haven't had an airline flight pause on the taxiway waiting for
this information? I have, as recently as last week.

ATC would indeed care if the aircraft wasn't ready to go yet because
it couldn't legally depart.

While you may be right, I'm having a difficult time understanding why ATC
would concern itself with something unrelated to traffic control - unless
the PIC first brought it up. In any case, I thought weight, balance, and
such "numbers" were strictly a PIC responsibility.

For them to ask if the crew had "their
numbers" yet (note, not "the numbers") would make sense if, for
example, they were going to hold off obtaining IFR release from
Departure until the flight was ready, and the crew had advised them
they weren't because they hadn't gotten that information.

Okay - it would make more sense (to me, anyway) only if it was the pilot
who first brought up not having their "numbers" as the reason they might
not be as ready as they claimed. I also assumed the more well known meaning
of "have numbers" was involved here.

Scott Skylane wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
The poster said these were ATC transmissions, not internal company
communications. Since ATC doesn't concern itself with weight, balance,
or any other flight performance factors, your explanation is almost
certainly wrong.
/snip/
Jim, the answer Jay gave is almost certainly *correct*.

Okay - I sit corrected.

ATC absolutely cares about weight & balance, if, said aircraft is
number one for takeoff, but unable to do so since they don't have the
necessary data.

I see. But wouldn't it be more accurate to say ATC only cares that the
aircraft isn't ready and the specific reason in this case is common enough
that it has a colloquialism or slang term attached to it?

Jim Logajan wrote:


The OP described two different transmissions - one from the ATC asking a
question and one presumably initiated by the aircraft. I'm still not sure
why ATC would ask or be interested in whether the aircraft has the sort of
numbers Jay mentions.


I can think of one. The AC had previously refused a clearance because of
the lack of "the numbers." Though I tend to agree with you that in both
cases they were probably talking about ATIS,

On 2008-03-28, Jim Logajan wrote:
Scott Skylane wrote:
ATC absolutely cares about weight & balance, if, said aircraft is
number one for takeoff, but unable to do so since they don't have the
necessary data.
I see. But wouldn't it be more accurate to say ATC only cares that the
aircraft isn't ready and the specific reason in this case is common enough
that it has a colloquialism or slang term attached to it?

That's not a bad way to put it. ATC cares about the delay, and an airliner
not getting the information it needs in time to taxi directly to the runway
and take off is one common cause for that delay.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

AIM 3-9-1, Jay.

Bob Gardner

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message
...
On 2008-03-28, Thomas Borchert wrote:
This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and
balance)
I would have thought they were referring to the ATIS as "the numbers"
(not
"their").

Thats why I was careful to see what the original query was. The ATIS
doesn't
count as "their numbers"; the weight and balance info does.

FWIW, I was always taught to indicate I had the ATIS with, for example,
"Ellington Tower, Zodiac five five Zulu Charlie, inbound from the
southeast
for landing with Foxtrot." "I have the numbers" is not sufficiently
precise:
it doesn't tell them *which* numbers you have, and if the ATIS changes,
they
need to know if you got the right ones.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

Gig 601XL Builder wrote in
:

Jim Logajan wrote:


The OP described two different transmissions - one from the ATC
asking a question and one presumably initiated by the aircraft. I'm
still not sure why ATC would ask or be interested in whether the
aircraft has the sort of numbers Jay mentions.


I can think of one. The AC had previously refused a clearance because
of the lack of "the numbers." Though I tend to agree with you that in
both cases they were probably talking about ATIS,


When I was based at a class C airport (SJC), I would here this from the
airliners. They were wating for the numbers (weight, fuel, CG) from their
dispatcher and would decline or request a delay in departure clearance by
telling ATC that they were waiting for their numbers and ATC would ask if
they had their numbers to resequence them for departure.

For ATIS, if they didn't give the information name to CD or Ground, they
would be told the frequency to get it and to call back when they got it.
On calling approach, we would use "with the numbers" if we had just heard
ATC give a verbal update on the ATIS information to an aircraft ahead of us
or had forgotten the information name but had the winds and altimeter
settings.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Jay Maynard wrote in
:

On 2008-03-28, Jim Logajan wrote:
Scott Skylane wrote:
ATC absolutely cares about weight & balance, if, said aircraft is
number one for takeoff, but unable to do so since they don't have
the necessary data.
I see. But wouldn't it be more accurate to say ATC only cares that
the aircraft isn't ready and the specific reason in this case is
common enough that it has a colloquialism or slang term attached to
it?

That's not a bad way to put it. ATC cares about the delay, and an
airliner not getting the information it needs in time to taxi directly
to the runway and take off is one common cause for that delay.


ATC doesn't need to ask if you have that. you would. They're not your
mommy.


Bertie

Jay,

The ATIS doesn't
count as "their numbers"; the weight and balance info does.

True enough.

FWIW, I was always taught to indicate I had the ATIS with, for example,
"Ellington Tower, Zodiac five five Zulu Charlie, inbound from the southeast
for landing with Foxtrot." "I have the numbers" is not sufficiently precise:
it doesn't tell them *which* numbers you have, and if the ATIS changes, they
need to know if you got the right ones.

Agreed.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

How about the Air Traffic Control Handbook instead of the AIM:

3-9-1. DEPARTURE INFORMATION
Provide current departure information, as appropriate, to departing
aircraft.
a. Departure information contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if
the pilot states the appropriate ATIS code.
b. Issue departure information by including the following:
1. Runway in use. (May be omitted if pilot states "have the numbers.")
2. Surface wind from direct readout dial, wind shear detection system, or
automated weather observing system information display. (May be omitted if
pilot states "have the numbers.")
3. Altimeter setting. (May be omitted if pilot states "have the numbers.")

Bob Gardner


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
AIM 3-9-1, Jay.

Bob Gardner

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message
...
On 2008-03-28, Thomas Borchert wrote:
This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and
balance)
I would have thought they were referring to the ATIS as "the numbers"
(not
"their").

Thats why I was careful to see what the original query was. The ATIS
doesn't
count as "their numbers"; the weight and balance info does.

FWIW, I was always taught to indicate I had the ATIS with, for example,
"Ellington Tower, Zodiac five five Zulu Charlie, inbound from the
southeast
for landing with Foxtrot." "I have the numbers" is not sufficiently
precise:
it doesn't tell them *which* numbers you have, and if the ATIS changes,
they
need to know if you got the right ones.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

On 2008-03-28, Bob Gardner wrote:
How about the Air Traffic Control Handbook instead of the AIM:

3-9-1. DEPARTURE INFORMATION
Provide current departure information, as appropriate, to departing
aircraft.
a. Departure information contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if
the pilot states the appropriate ATIS code.
b. Issue departure information by including the following:
1. Runway in use. (May be omitted if pilot states "have the numbers.")
2. Surface wind from direct readout dial, wind shear detection system, or
automated weather observing system information display. (May be omitted if
pilot states "have the numbers.")
3. Altimeter setting. (May be omitted if pilot states "have the numbers.")

I was wondering what you were referring to, since there's no 3-9-1 in the
AIM, nor anything relevant anywhere close...

It's interesting to see this quote, though; it expands upon what's in AIM
4-1-13, especially paragraph h.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)