(USA) NTSB issues recommendations to the FAA and the SSA regarding transponder use in gliders

On Apr 1, 3:23 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
I agree completely.....PCAS would be a good and very affordable option for
glider pilots...
allowing (or forcing the FAA's hand)into making transponders mandatory in
gliders is going to be a real bump in the road for many (most) glider owners
and clubs...many who don't need to fly down the approach corridor of
international airports to get their kicks..
The other problem with transponders in gliders is the false sense of
security it implies....to many it is "assumed" that this is like a shield
keeping everyone else aware of their presents as they go happily flying
along with their heads down looking at the wiz-bang flight computer...this
leads to more near misses and occasional hits than electronics can
avoid....I know of no Cherokee 140's or Cezna 172's flying with TCAS on
board....and I also know of a lot more glider pilots who will insist they
only turn on the transponder when they are flying down the glideslope of
major airports..
Transponders are not the fix all for the problem, but mandatory transponders
in k6's, 2-33's and 126's will certainly have an impact on the sport as we
"knew" it.
tim

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message

...

On Apr 1, 11:57 am, "Tim Mara" wrote:
the problem isn't gliders without transponders....the problem has always
been flying where you shouldn't be .... I never went skin diving where
they
were chumming for sharks.... it's the same thing
No the problem is when you really look at it there is much more
traffic up there than we appreciate, and that is not just Reno but
many other places. See and avoid does not work, see and estimate the
traffic density does not really work either. People can underestimate
the density and overestimate their safety and continue to believe they
are doing a good job seeing and avoiding - pilots should try out a
PCAS and it may surprise them how how much stuff they missed before.
There are many places where you just can't go XC without significant
exposure to GA, commercial and military traffic but many glider pilots
are underestimating that traffic, live in a pilotage/VFR world, don't
have a feel for traffic flow with approach/departure procedures, and
without a transponder just do not fit into a radar managed traffic
control system.

Darryl

Tim

I do fly in high traffic density areas (with transponder and PCAS and
talking to ATC when appropriate) and know many other pilots that also
at least have a transponder in their ship and none that I know have
this naive view of transponders and safety bubbles. If anything the
fact that they have a transponder in their glider, tends to be
correlated with an awareness of traffic, ATC, etc. and I suspect if
anything these folks are more likely to have their heads outside the
cockpit. And since many of those same pilots also fly with PCAS I can
guarantee they understand the need to be looking outside.

I know of many light aircraft flying with PCAS (Zaon) and a few (new
expensive ones) with the Avidyne/Ryan system that is between PCAS and
TCAS.

Darryl

Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Apr 1, 3:23 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
I agree completely.....PCAS would be a good and very affordable option for
glider pilots...
allowing (or forcing the FAA's hand) into making transponders mandatory in
gliders is going to be a real bump in the road for many (most) glider owners
and clubs...many who don't need to fly down the approach corridor of
international airports to get their kicks..
The other problem with transponders in gliders is the false sense of
security it implies....to many it is "assumed" that this is like a shield
keeping everyone else aware of their presents as they go happily flying
along with their heads down looking at the wiz-bang flight computer...this
leads to more near misses and occasional hits than electronics can
avoid....I know of no Cherokee 140's or Cezna 172's flying with TCAS on
board....and I also know of a lot more glider pilots who will insist they
only turn on the transponder when they are flying down the glideslope of
major airports..
Transponders are not the fix all for the problem, but mandatory transponders
in k6's, 2-33's and 126's will certainly have an impact on the sport as we
"knew" it.


[....]


I do fly in high traffic density areas (with transponder and PCAS and
talking to ATC when appropriate) and know many other pilots that also
at least have a transponder in their ship and none that I know have
this naive view of transponders and safety bubbles. If anything the
fact that they have a transponder in their glider, tends to be
correlated with an awareness of traffic, ATC, etc. and I suspect if
anything these folks are more likely to have their heads outside the
cockpit. And since many of those same pilots also fly with PCAS I can
guarantee they understand the need to be looking outside.

I know of many light aircraft flying with PCAS (Zaon) and a few (new
expensive ones) with the Avidyne/Ryan system that is between PCAS and
TCAS.


I think you and Tim are dealing with different ends of the same stick.
The people who NOW have xpndrs and/or PCAS are a different breed than
many who will have xpndrs only when they are forced to have them. Some
of these will take the same blindered approach to traffic avoidance then
that they take now, just with more equipment in the cockpit.


Jack

I am concerned about the "transponders are the fix" attitude. Tucson
Soaring Club has bought transponders for all or our two place ships.
We talk with approach control before beginning operations and many of
us monitor if not talk to to approach while flying. We are also on
the ATIS for Tucson. Most club members think they are safe with the
transponders and are not as vigilant to "see and avoid". My closest
call has been with a Bonanza, overtaking me on a high speed descent
into Ryan field. All that I heard was the engine noise as he buzzed
by me at 1&1/2 wingspans at 9000'. He was not talking to approach
contol, had not listened to Tucson ATIS, did not have a TCAS and was
most likely not looking outside the cockpit for traffic. I would
rather exercise diligence myself with a Zaon MRX and have the
additional heads up to allow for me to "see and avoid". I already
will not do long straight runs without turning to clear myself of
traffic inbound or outbound from Tucson.

Randy "AV8"

LOV2AV8 wrote:
..We are also on
the ATIS for Tucson.


Why? ATIS is a recorded message. Perhaps you mean CTAF?

Tony V.

Why can't the FAA implement something similar to mode-c veils (or
whatever the technology should be) around certain high risk areas?
Maybe a new "veil" designation for gliders above 10k?

do you really want to be limited to 10K MSL?
Out here the airport elevations are 3-6K MSL, a 10K ceiling doe not give
much breathing room with land out areas few and far between.

Wait until ADS-B, you will be limited to 10K (according to the NPRM) if you
are not ADS-B capable.

B

wrote in message
...
Why can't the FAA implement something similar to mode-c veils (or
whatever the technology should be) around certain high risk areas?
Maybe a new "veil" designation for gliders above 10k?

On Apr 2, 4:44*pm, Tony Verhulst wrote:
LOV2AV8 wrote:
..We are also on
the ATIS for Tucson.

Why? ATIS is a recorded message. Perhaps you mean CTAF?

Tony V.

Not CTAF. That wouldn't do much in a Class C area with multiple
airports. On the recorded ATIS along with winds, runway in use,
contact approach control on XXX.XX it says "Caution, glider operations
in the vicinity of the Tucson VOR 297 radial at 28 miles up to
12,000'. This doesn't do much good as the commercial jets fly right
thru the area and even have a checkpoint near our field. I don't
think that these guys are doing too much "see and avoid" but are
counting on ATC and TCAS. I'm also not as concerned about two PCAS
gliders finding each other as a 200mph heavy metal airliner finding
me.

Randy "AV8"

Tim

I do fly in high traffic density areas (with transponder and PCAS and
talking to ATC when appropriate) and know many other pilots that also
at least have a transponder in their ship and none that I know have
this naive view of transponders and safety bubbles. If anything the
fact that they have a transponder in their glider, tends to be
correlated with an awareness of traffic, ATC, etc. and I suspect if
anything these folks are more likely to have their heads outside the
cockpit. And since many of those same pilots also fly with PCAS I can
guarantee they understand the need to be looking outside.


I am glad you can "Guarantee" this.....that makes it a lot easier
tim



I know of many light aircraft flying with PCAS (Zaon) and a few (new
expensive ones) with the Avidyne/Ryan system that is between PCAS and
TCAS.

Darryl

On Apr 2, 8:09 am, "Tim Mara" wrote:
Tim

I do fly in high traffic density areas (with transponder and PCAS and
talking to ATC when appropriate) and know many other pilots that also
at least have a transponder in their ship and none that I know have
this naive view of transponders and safety bubbles. If anything the
fact that they have a transponder in their glider, tends to be
correlated with an awareness of traffic, ATC, etc. and I suspect if
anything these folks are more likely to have their heads outside the
cockpit. And since many of those same pilots also fly with PCAS I can
guarantee they understand the need to be looking outside.

I am glad you can "Guarantee" this.....that makes it a lot easier
tim



I know of many light aircraft flying with PCAS (Zaon) and a few (new
expensive ones) with the Avidyne/Ryan system that is between PCAS and
TCAS.

Darryl


Tim you are welcome. :-) But if I do ever meet anybody flying with
PCAS who does not admit after a while there was lot more traffic out
there than they thought I'll be sure to let you know.

Darryl

precisely why I do recommend PCAS and do not always recommend
transponders....
the PCAS more or less tell you to "look out"...the transponder by nature of
it's apparent shield of protection can leave you feeling pretty secure that
someone else is "looking out" for you..
tim

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Apr 2, 8:09 am, "Tim Mara" wrote:
Tim

I do fly in high traffic density areas (with transponder and PCAS and
talking to ATC when appropriate) and know many other pilots that also
at least have a transponder in their ship and none that I know have
this naive view of transponders and safety bubbles. If anything the
fact that they have a transponder in their glider, tends to be
correlated with an awareness of traffic, ATC, etc. and I suspect if
anything these folks are more likely to have their heads outside the
cockpit. And since many of those same pilots also fly with PCAS I can
guarantee they understand the need to be looking outside.

I am glad you can "Guarantee" this.....that makes it a lot easier
tim



I know of many light aircraft flying with PCAS (Zaon) and a few (new
expensive ones) with the Avidyne/Ryan system that is between PCAS and
TCAS.

Darryl


Tim you are welcome. :-) But if I do ever meet anybody flying with
PCAS who does not admit after a while there was lot more traffic out
there than they thought I'll be sure to let you know.

Darryl