Compass trouble

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message
...
On 2008-04-19, Jay Somerset wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:48:40 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:
Do you really have to quote a hundred lines of previous text for a four
line
answer?
There are folks around here who refuse to trim at all. I use a 43-line
terminal window to read Usenet with, and when it's full of stuff quoted 7
layers deep, I just hit N and go to the next message.

Apparently your curiosity got the best of you since you bothered to not only
scroll through to find the 4 new lines of text but also (roughly) counted
the quoted text.

Some post on top. Some post at the bottom. Some trim. Some don't.

Using a mouse wheel to scroll works pretty well. There have been times when
people trim excessively and I have to go find a past post that didn't trim
to refresh my memory as to the context. I would rather have excessive
quoting that requires a fraction of a second to scroll past than excessive
trimming that makes me unfilter read articles, find the thread in the long
list, re-find my position in the thread and then find a post that has enough
context to be useful.

Email threads are typically top post oriented. That makes it much simpler,
doesn't it? The new text is right at the top and the rest is an easy scroll
away but easily ignored.

It seems that the phylosophy to bottom post is causing the problem. Bottom
posting makes all the intermediate text get in the way and trimming becomes
the curtious thing to do. Just top post and leave it all there. When the
thread gets too long, it's probably time to move on to something else
anyway.

I have been bottom posting and trimming just to go along with the vocal few
that seem to get all bent out of shape otherwise. After thinking about, I
think I'll start top posting.

Of course, mixed top and bottom does get a little confusing...

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

On 2008-04-19, Travis Marlatte wrote:
Using a mouse wheel to scroll works pretty well.

Not when reading news in a text mode reader in a terminal window, it
doesn't.

I would rather have excessive quoting that requires a fraction of a second
to scroll past than excessive trimming that makes me unfilter read
articles, find the thread in the long list, re-find my position in the
thread and then find a post that has enough context to be useful.

Optimize for the common case. Out of how many articles do you have to do
this once?

Further, your newsreader almost certainly has a function to read the parent
of the article you're currently on. Try using that; it makes life a lot
simpler.

Email threads are typically top post oriented. That makes it much simpler,
doesn't it? The new text is right at the top and the rest is an easy scroll
away but easily ignored.

Just because Microsoft screwed this up is no reason to enshrine it in
practice.

It seems that the phylosophy to bottom post is causing the problem. Bottom
posting makes all the intermediate text get in the way and trimming becomes
the curtious thing to do. Just top post and leave it all there. When the
thread gets too long, it's probably time to move on to something else
anyway.

Top posting is evil because it totally divorces your response from what
you're responding to, thus destroying any context in your replies.

Do you have conversations backwards? Then why post that way?

I have been bottom posting and trimming just to go along with the vocal few
that seem to get all bent out of shape otherwise. After thinking about, I
think I'll start top posting.

There are a nonzero number of people who ignore those discourteous enough to
top post.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

In article ,
Jay Maynard wrote:

Just because Microsoft screwed this up is no reason to enshrine it in
practice.

Eventually the real story of top-posting will come out. Some engineers
at microsoft wanted to prove how bad they could make the GUI and
still have the lemmings thinks it's a wonderful thing. :-)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

MS didn't invent email.

But otherwise, feel free to ignore this top post.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message
...
On 2008-04-19, Travis Marlatte wrote:
Using a mouse wheel to scroll works pretty well.

Not when reading news in a text mode reader in a terminal window, it
doesn't.

I would rather have excessive quoting that requires a fraction of a
second
to scroll past than excessive trimming that makes me unfilter read
articles, find the thread in the long list, re-find my position in the
thread and then find a post that has enough context to be useful.

Optimize for the common case. Out of how many articles do you have to do
this once?

Further, your newsreader almost certainly has a function to read the
parent
of the article you're currently on. Try using that; it makes life a lot
simpler.

Email threads are typically top post oriented. That makes it much
simpler,
doesn't it? The new text is right at the top and the rest is an easy
scroll
away but easily ignored.

Just because Microsoft screwed this up is no reason to enshrine it in
practice.

It seems that the phylosophy to bottom post is causing the problem.
Bottom
posting makes all the intermediate text get in the way and trimming
becomes
the curtious thing to do. Just top post and leave it all there. When the
thread gets too long, it's probably time to move on to something else
anyway.

Top posting is evil because it totally divorces your response from what
you're responding to, thus destroying any context in your replies.

Do you have conversations backwards? Then why post that way?

I have been bottom posting and trimming just to go along with the vocal
few
that seem to get all bent out of shape otherwise. After thinking about, I
think I'll start top posting.

There are a nonzero number of people who ignore those discourteous enough
to
top post.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

On 2008-04-21, Travis Marlatte wrote:
MS didn't invent email.

No, they didn't. Before Outlook screwed up everyone's expectations, though,
top-posting was universally reviled. Microsoft's mistake changed all that,
and not for the better.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

I can understand both perspectives and, in fact, am leaning toward
preferring top posting. Your hard line position and blaming MS seems a
little fanatical.

I noticed that you didn't ignore my top post.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message
...
On 2008-04-21, Travis Marlatte wrote:
MS didn't invent email.

No, they didn't. Before Outlook screwed up everyone's expectations,
though,
top-posting was universally reviled. Microsoft's mistake changed all that,
and not for the better.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

Travis Marlatte wrote:
I can understand both perspectives and, in fact, am leaning toward
preferring top posting.

Same here.

I bottom post, as I always have on Usenet, out of respect to convention.
Over time, I have formed an opinion that top posting or intertwining
comments makes the most sense from a readability standpoint.

To my eyes, what creates the real problems are people who don't trim
long posts combined with both top and bottom posting in long threads.

If a reply is properly trimmed and attributed, the reply is readable and
makes perfect sense regardless of where the reply is placed.

On 2008-04-21, B A R R Y wrote:
I bottom post, as I always have on Usenet, out of respect to convention.
Over time, I have formed an opinion that top posting or intertwining
comments makes the most sense from a readability standpoint.

What people call "interleaving" or "intertwining" comments is the actual
convention. Pure bottom-posting is no better than top-posting, and for the
same reason: there's no correspondence between your comments and what you're
commenting on.

To my eyes, what creates the real problems are people who don't trim
long posts combined with both top and bottom posting in long threads.

Yes, indeed. Lack of trimming is a real pain.

If a reply is properly trimmed and attributed, the reply is readable and
makes perfect sense regardless of where the reply is placed.

No. Top posting still breaks the relationship between your comments and what
you're commenting on.

You don't have conversations backwards...but that's what a top-posted
message reads like.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

On 2008-04-21, Travis Marlatte wrote:
I can understand both perspectives and, in fact, am leaning toward
preferring top posting. Your hard line position and blaming MS seems a
little fanatical.

No, it's just backed by 20 years on the Internet. You see, I was here before
Microsoft ever dreamed of making software to use it.

Those who insist on topposting make a point of ignoring long-standing
Internet etiquette.

I noticed that you didn't ignore my top post.

Because I had a point to make.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message ...
On 2008-04-21, Travis Marlatte wrote:
I can understand both perspectives and, in fact, am leaning toward
preferring top posting. Your hard line position and blaming MS seems a
little fanatical.

No, it's just backed by 20 years on the Internet. You see, I was here before
Microsoft ever dreamed of making software to use it.

Those who insist on topposting make a point of ignoring long-standing
Internet etiquette.

I noticed that you didn't ignore my top post.

Because I had a point to make.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)


So what is that break in the middle response called...center posting?