GPS-NAV security sealing

Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
offense to the vendors.

In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
for security sealing by computer communication? We transfer money
electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
right? You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
possible because I've done it.

So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
or visa and both parties are happy.

I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
discussion.

Steve Michalik


At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
Hi,

Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
backup
battery.

The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
low

and die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure
and
needs re-sealing.

Paul Remde

"Fred Blair" wrote in message
...
Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without

breaking the seal?

wrote in message

...
On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
wrote:
Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
seal
it
without spending hundreds of dollars?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Steve Michalik

Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
was
$130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
delivery.
My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
price.
Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
UH


The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC reads the voltage of the
backup

battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
power-up.
It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.

Hartley Falbaum
USA

Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the interior
of the unit for tampering before resealing. Otherwise, there's not much
point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

A few comments on this thread;

- A reseal is not a recalibration. A recalibration might include a
reseal.
- The $140 (in my case) for NK is to do a complete recalibration
(required by FAI/SSA every 2 years). What does a recalibration do?
As far as I know it doesn't change anything in the recorder. It only
reviews how the pressure altimeter (versus GPS altimeter) relates to
reality. The recalibration process is to put the recorder into a
barometric (hyperbaric) chamber, then change the pressure in the
chamber to preset altitudes, get the recorder's altitude reading and
finally produce a report of any altitude offsets. NK also changes the
battery on GPS-NAVs (which means that they unseal and reseal the
unit?). Is there anything else that is done during a recalibration?
If so it does seem kind of pricey. But then I don't know how much a
barometric chamber costs these days.
- Craggy Aero's cost of $40 (plus s/h) is for a reseal only. Why do
recorders get unsealed? Physical tampering/opening or mechanical
failure are my only thoughts. Are there other possibilities?
- Resealing via the Internet? I'm up for that. But what seems easy to
implement probably isn't in a secure fashion (PC Anywhere
nonwithstanding). In reality there just isn't enough need for reseals
to pay for the development necessary to make this happen...with every
manufacturer...and get FAI approval to do so.
- About why we need all this damned security anyway (from the
Newbie). No doubt there have been cases of tampering with the
evidence, human nature being what it is. I can also imagine that
during the migration from mechanical recorders to electronic
recorders, there was a fear that electronics were more suseptible to
tampering. Mechanical recorders seem more secure because you can SEE
what they are doing. It's called resistance to change which is rather
rampant in the aviation field. Thus they chose to set the security
bar high. How high? You can't open the device without tripping the
unsealed flag. I guess I don't call that too invasive.
- How can Craggy (and others) do a reseal or recalibration but not us
regular Joes? Craggy has been blessed by the manufacturer similar to
being an authorized service center. He also has the proper
equipment. I believe for a reseal, he also has to call the
manufacturer to get a code. Could he get in cahoots with someone to
fake a world record? It would take some pretty good technical skill
to tamper with things, but if you could, consider the fame and
fortune!! Yeah. Right.
- I may be a heretic to say so but is a recalibration really
necessary? Hmmmm. I don't see an OLC rule requiring it. Do they ask
for calibration documentation at regional, national or world
competitions? For badges you are requested to send in a copy of the
recalibration report (less than 2 years old as of the date of the
flight). However, you can wait up to 1 month AFTER your epic flight
to get the recalibration done. Strange but true. My calibration is
due next Feb. However, I am unlikely to need it any time soon unless
I get a lucky break and make a gold leg. I will probably wait until
after my next epic badge flight. I am less clear about the rules
surrounding records.
- Is a reseal really necessary? I would have to say yes. A broken
security seal marks the IGC file as forever bad. No amount of
resealing or recalibration will fix that. This means that you epic
flight is toast and only good for vicarious reliving of your past
glories in SeeYou.

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:21:12 -0700, ContestID67 wrote:

Minor clarification:

For badges you are requested to send in a copy of the recalibration
report (less than 2 years old as of the date of the flight). However,
you can wait up to 1 month AFTER your epic flight to get the
recalibration done.

A calibration certificate within -2yrs to + 1 month is only needed for a
height claim, not for distance or duration. In these cases the logger
altitude doesn't need to be accurate because all it has to do is to show
that you didn't land and take a relight or trailer the glider during the
task.

That applies here in the UK and, AFAIK, worldwide unless you have local
rules I don't know about.

Strange but true. My calibration is due next Feb.

I don't think that's so strange. The logger isn't likely to drift much
during that month.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

ContestID67 wrote:
..The recalibration process is to put the recorder into a
barometric (hyperbaric) chamber.....


Surely you meant hypobaric.

Tony V.

Hi Marc,

Good point. I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the interior
of the unit for tampering before resealing. Otherwise, there's not much
point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
changes or board modifications? More likely someone would hook through
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik



At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Marc,

Good point. I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight

recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. Otherwise, there's not
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

On Aug 27, 4:39*pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

*I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
changes or board modifications? *More likely someone would hook through
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:



Hi Marc,

Good point. *I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" *wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. *Otherwise, there's not
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc



Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc. don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

On Aug 27, 5:24*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39*pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

*I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
changes or board modifications? *More likely someone would hook through
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. *I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" *wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. *Otherwise, there's not
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc. don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

=A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
th=
e
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
throu=
gh
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
kno=
w
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
t=
o
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
N=
or
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
connect=
ed
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
fli=
ght
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
no=
t
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl