GPS-NAV security sealing

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

=A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
th=
e
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
throu=
gh
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
kno=
w
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
t=
o
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
N=
or
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
connect=
ed
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
fli=
ght
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
no=
t
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

=A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
th=
e
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
throu=
gh
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
kno=
w
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
t=
o
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
N=
or
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
connect=
ed
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
fli=
ght
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
no=
t
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

On Aug 26, 9:09*pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
offense to the vendors.

In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
for security sealing by computer communication? *We transfer money
electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
right? *You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
possible because I've done it. *

So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #? *

You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
or visa and both parties are happy.

I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
discussion.

Steve Michalik

At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:







"Paul Remde" *wrote in message
news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
Hi,

Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
backup
battery.

The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
low

and die before it was replaced. *The unit then had a security failure
and
needs re-sealing.

Paul Remde

"Fred Blair" *wrote in message
...
Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
breaking the seal?

*wrote in message

...
On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
wrote:
Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
seal
it
without spending hundreds of dollars?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Steve Michalik

Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
was
$130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
delivery.
My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
price.
Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
UH

The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC * reads the voltage of the
backup

battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
power-up.
It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.

Hartley Falbaum
USA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sam,

I provide calibration for $60 + $40 to reset seal = $100 + shipping.
My Standard turn is 1 day. If I receive today I will ship back
tomorrow. I find that many customers appreciate this service as they
can save $ on shipping by using US Priotiy Mail or FEDEX Saver.

I would replace the battery every year. They are inexpensive.
Powering the recorder while replacing the battery does not break the
electronic security seal. Take the top cover GPS Antenna off while
the recorder is powered and replace the battery. Use a CR2330
battery, this is 5mm thicker than the recommended battery BR or CR
2325, and insures good contact.

http://www.craggyaero.com/calibration.htm

Thanks

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Aug 27, 6:47*am, Richard wrote:
On Aug 26, 9:09*pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:





Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
offense to the vendors.

In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
for security sealing by computer communication? *We transfer money
electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
right? *You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
possible because I've done it. *

So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #? *

You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
or visa and both parties are happy.

I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
discussion.

Steve Michalik

At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:

"Paul Remde" *wrote in message
news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
Hi,

Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
backup
battery.

The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
low

and die before it was replaced. *The unit then had a security failure
and
needs re-sealing.

Paul Remde

"Fred Blair" *wrote in message
...
Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
breaking the seal?

*wrote in message

....
On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
wrote:
Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
seal
it
without spending hundreds of dollars?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Steve Michalik

Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
was
$130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
delivery.
My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
price.
Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
UH

The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC * reads the voltage of the
backup

battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
power-up.
It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.

Hartley Falbaum
USA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sam,

I provide calibration for $60 + $40 to reset seal = $100 + shipping.
My Standard turn is 1 day. *If I receive today I will ship back
tomorrow. *I find that many customers appreciate this service as they
can save $ on shipping by using US Priotiy Mail or FEDEX Saver.

I would replace the battery every year. *They are inexpensive.
Powering the recorder while replacing the battery does not break the
electronic security seal. *Take the top cover GPS Antenna off while
the recorder is powered and replace the battery. *Use a CR2330
battery, this is 5mm thicker than the recommended battery BR or CR
2325, and insures good contact.

http://www.craggyaero.com/calibration.htm

Thanks

Richardwww.craggyaero.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry forgot the decimal point on the 5mm, it is really .5 mm
thicker.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Hi Steve,

I understand your point and I agree with it. I do web conferencing all the
time and connect to the customer's computer so I can see that they are doing
and walk them through procedures. With their permission I can even control
their PC. That method could probably be used to re-seal your GPS-NAV. I
would be in control from my office and I would enter the re-seal codes told
to me over the phone by NK. Give me a call if you want to give it a try.
Since I'm in full control and you can't duplicate what I'm doing, I don't
see any reason why there would be any security concerns.

Paul Remde

"Sam Discusflyer" wrote in message
...
Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
offense to the vendors.

In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
for security sealing by computer communication? We transfer money
electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
right? You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
possible because I've done it.

So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
or visa and both parties are happy.

I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
discussion.

Steve Michalik


At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
Hi,

Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
backup
battery.

The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
low

and die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure
and
needs re-sealing.

Paul Remde

"Fred Blair" wrote in message
...
Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without

breaking the seal?

wrote in message

...
On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
wrote:
Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
seal
it
without spending hundreds of dollars?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Steve Michalik

Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
was
$130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
delivery.
My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
price.
Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
UH


The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC reads the voltage of the
backup

battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
power-up.
It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.

Hartley Falbaum
USA

Hi Steve,

Never mind. I guess it makes sense for me (or NK) to have the unit in hand
to make sure it hasn't been tampered with. That is the reason for the
existing process.

Paul Remde

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:7Edtk.261163$TT4.65181@attbi_s22...
Hi Steve,

I understand your point and I agree with it. I do web conferencing all
the time and connect to the customer's computer so I can see that they are
doing and walk them through procedures. With their permission I can even
control their PC. That method could probably be used to re-seal your
GPS-NAV. I would be in control from my office and I would enter the
re-seal codes told to me over the phone by NK. Give me a call if you want
to give it a try. Since I'm in full control and you can't duplicate what
I'm doing, I don't see any reason why there would be any security
concerns.

Paul Remde

"Sam Discusflyer" wrote in message
...
Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And
you
change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
offense to the vendors.

In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
for security sealing by computer communication? We transfer money
electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
right? You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
possible because I've done it.

So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with
paypal
or visa and both parties are happy.

I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
discussion.

Steve Michalik


At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
Hi,

Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
backup
battery.

The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
low

and die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure
and
needs re-sealing.

Paul Remde

"Fred Blair" wrote in message
...
Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without

breaking the seal?

wrote in message

...
On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
wrote:
Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
seal
it
without spending hundreds of dollars?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Steve Michalik

Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
was
$130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
delivery.
My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
price.
Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
UH


The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC reads the voltage of the
backup

battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
power-up.
It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.

Hartley Falbaum
USA