Gliders and Transponders......again.

kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
Without belaboring it I think it has been said enough times that
currently there is no single fool proof way to guaranty avoiding mid
airs. Having an operating transponder, without argument, will diminish
your chance of a mid air since both ATC and aircraft with TCAS or PCAS
will see you. You may not see them and that is why in my world,
without argument, you should also have, at the minimum, a PCAS so that
you will see another aircraft with an operating transponder. A Zaon
PCAS can be had for only $500 - a trivial amount when it comes to
safety. I don't know why we are still discussing these issues -
transponders and PCAS are mandatory safety devices in my world. I
can't think of a reason why anyone would think otherwise.

And, where I fly in southeastern Washington state, you don't even need
to have either to benefit from transponder technology. Just contact the
area's Approach Control - Free! - and they are happy to alert other
aircraft they are talking to about your location. Often, they can track
your primary target and warn YOU of approaching aircraft that are not
talking to ATC.

After 5 years of not seeing an airliner, light jet, or even a big twin
near me, the transponder seems like cheap insurance. I've had the MRX
for only two years, and it's pretty good at catching the Cessna types,
which I still see now and then.

This stuff works.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

From this side of the pond (UK) I think there are few pilots who don't
support measures to reduce the risk of mid-airs.

What we pretty much agree on is that it is unreasonable for the men in
suits to mandate the installation of expensive, heavy, power hungry,
outdated (nearly) equipment in our gliders to fix a problem many think is
invented by the suits to justify technology to enable a covert agenda to
the benefit of CAT and UAVs who could pay for it but are not being asked
to.

Cheaper, better, low power technology is here now and in the pipeline that
can do this better and can be fitted easily in gliders.

Jim

ps: I'll bet that, on average, those that have transponders and PCAS look
out less.

I'll bet, on average, that people that have a PCAS look out MORE than
those that don't have one. The reason is feedback. When you don't have
a PCAS you scan, but mostly you don't find anything. Lacking positive
feedback (a reward), your scan degrades. When a PCAS alerts during
your scan, you naturally increase your visual lookout until you find
the target. This is reward based training, and over time you learn to
look harder and better.

-John

On Jan 23, 3:30 am, Jim White wrote:
ps: I'll bet that, on average, those that have transponders and PCAS look
out less.

On Jan 23, 12:30*am, Jim White wrote:
From this side of the pond (UK) I think there are few pilots who don't
support measures to reduce the risk of mid-airs.

What we pretty much agree on is that it is unreasonable for the men in
suits to mandate the installation of expensive, heavy, power hungry,
outdated (nearly) equipment in our gliders to fix a problem many think is
invented by the suits to justify technology to enable a covert agenda to
the benefit of CAT and UAVs who could pay for it but are not being asked
to.

Cheaper, better, low power technology is here now and in the pipeline that
can do this better and can be fitted easily in gliders.

Jim

ps: I'll bet that, on average, those that have transponders and PCAS look
out less.

I think we've been over many of these claimed objections before but
currently available transponders have manageable low power consumption
(500mA), are quite compact, weight 1-2 pounds and their mode-S
technology will do good service for many years. I would expect a Mode-
S with 1090ES (Extended Squitter) should give you forward
compatibility for many decades. 1090ES is not going away and is a safe
forward technology bet. UK/Europe has not even settled on mixing in
UAT (or VDL-4) right? What's the amortized annual cost for a decade
(or likely more) of use for a Mode-S 1090ES transponder? Likewise the
amortized cost of a PCAS (if you want one) is very low, arguably even
lower if the UK sticks with 1090ES only. UAT systems and all the
ground infrastructure, ADS-B-in/FIS-B/TIS-B etc. might all be
interesting in future but are a long way away from being available
today for use in a sailplane, in the meantime the 1090ES system
(eventually with a ADS-B GPS input) offers all the ADS-B output
compatibility you will need.

There may be other concerns about what is happening with UK airspace
and mandatory transponder requirements etc. and maybe the paperwork/
bureaucracy burden is unreasonable (I don't know) but I'll keep
reiterating that if these things are concerns to UK glider pilots you
are not credibly advancing your argument by continuing to raise
concerns that are either just not technically correct or will appear
trivial to other aviation folks or lay people.

Why do you think glider pilots flying with transponders and PCAS look
out less? Do you have any observations/experience that supports this?
All I can offer is that just about every glider pilot flying with a
PCAS (almost all with the Zaon MRX) that I know have made some
combination of the following comments --
1. There is a lot more traffic out there than they had realized
(especially around Reno and the SF Bay Area).
2. The MRX never seems to give a false positive. i.e. if it beeps,
something *is* out there and you need to find it.

For my own flying, there is nothing interesting inside the cockpit on
the transponder or Zaon MRX to look at. If the Zaon beeps I'll look at
the altitude display (on my glareshield) and use that to help scan in
the likely area to identify the traffic.


Darryl

Jim White wrote:


Cheaper, better, low power technology is here now and in the pipeline that
can do this better and can be fitted easily in gliders.

I'm very skeptical about the "low power technology here now" part.
Please tell me what this technology is, in what country you can get it,
and what it costs.

In the USA, the only thing with national coverage is transponders. ADS-B
is available in some parts of the country, but the only general aviation
"solution" is the GDL-90 from Garmin. It's the size of a shoebox, weighs
6 pounds, draws 1.75 amps on 12 volts, and costs $7000 (installation
extra). Makes a transponder seem like free candy.

I'm also skeptical of the "in the pipeline" claim, unless that means
"I've heard of some stuff that could do the job but it's not even on
it's way to certification because there aren't even any specifications
for it yet".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

kd6veb wrote:
I don't know why we are still discussing these issues -
transponders and PCAS are mandatory safety devices in my world. I
can't think of a reason why anyone would think otherwise.
Dave

One reason I worry about is that some people who would have them
installed start to depend on them to "alert" them of other traffic
rather than looking for traffic visually. A similar example of
something that happened to me once...I was in my Aeronca Chief (powered
aircraft, NO radio) on (extended) base leg of the approach. A guy in a
(faster) aircraft was about a mile out on final (after going way down on
downwind, giving him a about 3 miles of final approach). With my slow
Chief, he should have been down and clear of the runway before I even
turned final. All of a sudden, he makes a left turn and is heading
straight for me. Assuming he sees me, I turn to the right and descend,
assuming he would go right and pull up (I went down because I could
change altitude faster than pulling up). I cleared the area (WAY clear
of this guy), watch him land from afar and then came in to land. I go
up to him and asked him if he saw me and why he made that turn right at
me. His answer..."Nope didn't see you. Were you on the radio? I made
a missed approach and at uncontrolled airports, turns are made to the
left." I then explained that he should have continued down the runway,
climb and rejoin the pattern on crosswind leg and that not all aircraft
have radios (or electrical systems to support them). To me, it was
apparent that if he didn't hear anybody call in on the radio, there was
nobody else there.

Scott

Scott makes a very good point. Some of our club 2 seater gliders are fitted
with Flarm units. A few weeks ago I very nearly had a mid-air collision
because I was looking for a contact showing on my right hand side (which
could have been several kilometres away) and failed to spot a non-Flarm
equipped glider converging from the left, until it was almost too late.
The technology was actually a distraction from keeping a good scanning
lookout!

Derek Copelaand

At 11:34 23 January 2009, Scott wrote:
kd6veb wrote:
I don't know why we are still discussing these issues -
transponders and PCAS are mandatory safety devices in my world. I
can't think of a reason why anyone would think otherwise.
Dave

One reason I worry about is that some people who would have them
installed start to depend on them to "alert" them of other traffic
rather than looking for traffic visually. A similar example of
something that happened to me once...I was in my Aeronca Chief (powered
aircraft, NO radio) on (extended) base leg of the approach. A guy in a
(faster) aircraft was about a mile out on final (after going way down on

downwind, giving him a about 3 miles of final approach). With my slow
Chief, he should have been down and clear of the runway before I even
turned final. All of a sudden, he makes a left turn and is heading
straight for me. Assuming he sees me, I turn to the right and descend,
assuming he would go right and pull up (I went down because I could
change altitude faster than pulling up). I cleared the area (WAY clear
of this guy), watch him land from afar and then came in to land. I go
up to him and asked him if he saw me and why he made that turn right at
me. His answer..."Nope didn't see you. Were you on the radio? I made

a missed approach and at uncontrolled airports, turns are made to the
left." I then explained that he should have continued down the runway,

climb and rejoin the pattern on crosswind leg and that not all aircraft
have radios (or electrical systems to support them). To me, it was
apparent that if he didn't hear anybody call in on the radio, there was

nobody else there.

Scott

Scott wrote:
kd6veb wrote:
I don't know why we are still discussing these issues -
transponders and PCAS are mandatory safety devices in my world. I
can't think of a reason why anyone would think otherwise.
Dave

One reason I worry about is that some people who would have them
installed start to depend on them to "alert" them of other traffic
rather than looking for traffic visually. A similar example of
something that happened to me once...I was in my Aeronca Chief (powered
aircraft, NO radio) on (extended) base leg of the approach. A guy in a
(faster) aircraft was about a mile out on final (after going way down on
downwind, giving him a about 3 miles of final approach). With my slow
Chief, he should have been down and clear of the runway before I even
turned final. All of a sudden, he makes a left turn and is heading
straight for me. Assuming he sees me, I turn to the right and descend,
assuming he would go right and pull up (I went down because I could
change altitude faster than pulling up). I cleared the area (WAY clear
of this guy), watch him land from afar and then came in to land. I go
up to him and asked him if he saw me and why he made that turn right at
me. His answer..."Nope didn't see you. Were you on the radio? I made
a missed approach and at uncontrolled airports, turns are made to the
left." I then explained that he should have continued down the runway,
climb and rejoin the pattern on crosswind leg and that not all aircraft
have radios (or electrical systems to support them). To me, it was
apparent that if he didn't hear anybody call in on the radio, there was
nobody else there.

It's easier for me to understand the pilot that thinks everyone has a
radio and uses it, than the pilot that doesn't carry a $200 handheld in
his Aeronca for the times he lands at an airport.

Scott, I've some bad news for you: what you fear is already here. Almost
all of us expect pilots to have and use a radio near an airport. Even
the cowboy ultralight guys I know have radios.

If it's the money that stops you from using a radio, tell us how much
you are willing to spend on a radio. I'm sure we can get up a collection
to make up the difference between that and a shiny new handheld.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Jan 23, 8:18*am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Scott wrote:
kd6veb wrote:
I don't know why we are still discussing these issues -
transponders and PCAS are mandatory safety devices in my world. I
can't think of a reason why anyone would think otherwise.
Dave

One reason I worry about is that some people who would have them
installed start to depend on them to "alert" them of other traffic
rather than looking for traffic visually. *A similar example of
something that happened to me once...I was in my Aeronca Chief (powered
aircraft, NO radio) on (extended) base leg of the approach. *A guy in a
(faster) aircraft was about a mile out on final (after going way down on
downwind, giving him a about 3 miles of final approach). *With my slow
Chief, he should have been down and clear of the runway before I even
turned final. *All of a sudden, he makes a left turn and is heading
straight for me. *Assuming he sees me, I turn to the right and descend,
assuming he would go right and pull up (I went down because I could
change altitude faster than pulling up). *I cleared the area (WAY clear
of this guy), watch him land from afar and then came in to land. *I go
up to him and asked him if he saw me and why he made that turn right at
me. *His answer..."Nope didn't see you. *Were you on the radio? *I made
a missed approach and at uncontrolled airports, turns are made to the
left." *I then explained that he should have continued down the runway,
climb and rejoin the pattern on crosswind leg and that not all aircraft
have radios (or electrical systems to support them). *To me, it was
apparent that if he didn't hear anybody call in on the radio, there was
nobody else there.

It's easier for me to understand the pilot that thinks everyone has a
radio and uses it, than the pilot that doesn't carry a $200 handheld in
his Aeronca for the times he lands at an airport.

Scott, I've some bad news for you: what you fear is already here. Almost
all of us expect pilots to have and use a radio near an airport. Even
the cowboy ultralight guys I know have radios.

If it's the money that stops you from using a radio, tell us how much
you are willing to spend on a radio. I'm sure we can get up a collection
to make up the difference between that and a shiny new handheld.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* * * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have to agree on that. I used to own an Aeronca Chief and had it
based at a controlled airport. There was no problem at all with using
a hand held radio, external antenna, and headphones and yoke mounted
PTT switch. Also used a similar setup in a J3 before that.

Andy

Eric Greenwell wrote:



It's easier for me to understand the pilot that thinks everyone has a
radio and uses it, than the pilot that doesn't carry a $200 handheld in
his Aeronca for the times he lands at an airport.

Scott, I've some bad news for you: what you fear is already here. Almost
all of us expect pilots to have and use a radio near an airport. Even
the cowboy ultralight guys I know have radios.

If it's the money that stops you from using a radio, tell us how much
you are willing to spend on a radio. I'm sure we can get up a collection
to make up the difference between that and a shiny new handheld.

The radio cost wasn't the issue for me. I had unshielded Eisemann
magnetos. I had a handheld (Icom A-21 Nav/Com) (and still do and USE it
in my Corben). I tested it once with a towered airport and all they got
was ignition noise hash. Now you're getting into BIG bucks to get
shielded mags and harnesses and STC, etc. I maintain my question...why
didn't the guy see me when I was at his 12 )'Clock and about a half a
mile after he made the turn toward me. My Chief was Aeronca Yellow with
Maroon stripe. I should have filled his windshield about the same as he
filled mine. I guess we were even...he expected to hear me and I
expected him to see me.

I had him in sight before I got in the pattern and followed his progress
throughout the pattern. He did surprise me with the left turn, but I
was able to react with enough time to get out of HIS way. His admission
that he NEVER saw me was what disturbed me. I am NOT anti-radio or
anti-transponder. I just worry that people rely on them WAY too much
and let their guard down for that 30 seconds that can lead up to a mid-air.

Scott