Co-pilot gets sick, stewardess helps land airplane

On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:51:12 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Wingnut writes:

Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed.

Not necessarily.

So, you're sayign that flight experience is irrelevant to flying an
aircraft?

There are two myths that need to be dispelled, namely (1) the notion
that anyone with any piloting experience necessarily will do a better
job of getting an plane home safely in an emergency

The notion that experience at something improves one's ability at that
something is a "myth"? Since when?

(2) the notion that someone without any piloting experience would
necessarily crash the airplane.

I don't think anyone here has claimed that. Though the less someone knows
about operating an aircraft, the poorer their odds.

An experienced Cessna pilot without help over the radio will probably
get in some possibly fatal trouble

Not the scenario here. This person was a commercial pilot, not just
someone who had operated their own personal plane.

Wingnut writes:

So, you're sayign that flight experience is irrelevant to flying an
aircraft?

That depends on the experience, and the aircraft. Flight experience in a
Cessna 152 will not necessarily be of any use in flying a 747 or a SR-71. The
basic principles are the same, but nothing more. Just as experience in driving
a Yugo doesn't necessarily help in driving a Formula 1 car.

The notion that experience at something improves one's ability at that
something is a "myth"? Since when?

A person with experience in a Cessna 152 still has none in a 747, and so he
will not necessarily be any more useful in a 747 cockpit than a non-pilot
would.

Pilots of small private aircraft who believe that they could just slip into a
747 cockpit and fly it are just as naive as non-pilots who believe the same
thing. To fly an airliner, you need experience and/or training in flying
airliners, not Piper Cubs.

I don't think anyone here has claimed that. Though the less someone knows
about operating an aircraft, the poorer their odds.

Yes. I've heard many people claim this, however, and it only shows that they
are uninformed.

A person with no flying experience who is compelled to take the controls of a
small aircraft without any automation runs a high risk of crashing. In a
large transport-category aircraft with heavy automation, though, he has a much
better chance of being able to land safely, if someone can give him
instructions over the radio. (Without instructions, his chances are just as
poor as they would be in the small aircraft.)

Not the scenario here. This person was a commercial pilot, not just
someone who had operated their own personal plane.

The same principle still applies to a certain extent, unless the commercial
pilot experience was in the same type of aircraft. If the FA had a CPL but had
not flown for 20 years, she may never have flown an airliner.

Mxsmanic wrote:
/snip/To fly an airliner, you need experience and/or training in flying
airliners, not Piper Cubs. /snip/

Sadly, the task is even more limiting: it is necessary to get flight
training in a PARTICULAR aircraft type. It's the systems know-how
that has to be built.

Let's see: would I know to turn on the two hydraulics control breakers,
the FMS1 and the FMS 2 breakers, spin up the APU , turn on the pneumatic
manifold to spin up one main engine, select radio frequencies via the
FMS CDU, initialize the INS - and on and on.....

Brian W
p.s. I cut out the entertainment NGs.

brian whatcott writes:

Let's see: would I know to turn on the two hydraulics control breakers,
the FMS1 and the FMS 2 breakers, spin up the APU , turn on the pneumatic
manifold to spin up one main engine, select radio frequencies via the
FMS CDU, initialize the INS - and on and on.....

Yes.

Of course, you wouldn't need to know all these things just to land the
airplane, particularly with help from an instructor on the ground. But you'd
need them to fly the aircraft competently, and you wouldn't learn them in a
Cessna. In any case, when it comes to landing the 747, a Cessna pilot
wouldn't really have any clear advantage over a non-pilot--the few things he
might know how to do would either be useless on a 747 or would be too trivial
to help without assistance.

Mxsmanic wrote:
brian whatcott writes:

Let's see: would I know to turn on the two hydraulics control breakers,
the FMS1 and the FMS 2 breakers, spin up the APU , turn on the pneumatic
manifold to spin up one main engine, select radio frequencies via the
FMS CDU, initialize the INS - and on and on.....

Yes.

Of course, you wouldn't need to know all these things just to land the
airplane, particularly with help from an instructor on the ground. But you'd
need them to fly the aircraft competently, and you wouldn't learn them in a
Cessna. In any case, when it comes to landing the 747, a Cessna pilot
wouldn't really have any clear advantage over a non-pilot--the few things he
might know how to do would either be useless on a 747 or would be too trivial
to help without assistance.

You mean like what the controls do and how to make a turn, what a stall is,
pulling the nose up decreases airspeed, putting the nose down decreases
airspeed, little things like that?


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Jun 20, 7:19*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

*In any case, when it comes to landing the 747, a Cessna pilot
wouldn't really have any clear advantage over a non-pilot-

WRONG. DEADLY WRONG if you really believe this.

OH, I guess it isn't deadly wrong since you have no clue what it takes
to fly a real plane.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:45:01 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Wingnut writes:

So, you're sayign that flight experience is irrelevant to flying an
aircraft?

That depends on the experience, and the aircraft. Flight experience in a
Cessna 152 will not necessarily be of any use in flying a 747 or a SR-71.

The lady in question has a commercial license, which implies more
experience than noodling around in a 152. At a minimum the lady
would know pulling back on the yoke raises the nose and and
pushing forward makes for nose down. She would also know that
turning the yoke will not make the plane turn unless the pedals
are also used. And, of course, she will know most of the lingo
and will know where to look when told to watch the air speed or
the artificial horizon. She will presumably know the difference
between mag north and true north and will have a pretty good idea
of which direction runway 120 points. She would know the purpose
of the flaps, the VOR, and so on. She will know how to read an
air chart.

The
basic principles are the same, but nothing more. Just as experience in driving
a Yugo doesn't necessarily help in driving a Formula 1 car.

It will help in driving the Formula 1 from the garage to the
street.

The notion that experience at something improves one's ability at that
something is a "myth"? Since when?

A person with experience in a Cessna 152 still has none in a 747, and so he
will not necessarily be any more useful in a 747 cockpit than a non-pilot
would.

Nonsense. While teh cockpit of a 747 is pretty complex, it still
contains the basic instruments of a twin-engine Beech.

Pilots of small private aircraft who believe that they could just slip into a
747 cockpit and fly it are just as naive as non-pilots who believe the same
thing.

I don't recall anyone here saying they could.

To fly an airliner, you need experience and/or training in flying
airliners, not Piper Cubs.

Well, duh. That's not the question at hand.

I don't think anyone here has claimed that. Though the less someone knows
about operating an aircraft, the poorer their odds.

Yes. I've heard many people claim this, however, and it only shows that they
are uninformed.

You've heard many people claim this? Who? And especially, who
here in this thread? As usual you're making up straw men.

A person with no flying experience who is compelled to take the controls of a
small aircraft without any automation runs a high risk of crashing. In a
large transport-category aircraft with heavy automation, though, he has a much
better chance of being able to land safely, if someone can give him
instructions over the radio. (Without instructions, his chances are just as
poor as they would be in the small aircraft.)

But this is a case where it would be especially helpful if the
person taking over the controls had, say, a commercial license,
for the reasons I cited above.

Not the scenario here. This person was a commercial pilot, not just
someone who had operated their own personal plane.

The same principle still applies to a certain extent, unless the commercial
pilot experience was in the same type of aircraft. If the FA had a CPL but had
not flown for 20 years, she may never have flown an airliner.

See the reasons I cited above. Among other things, an average
passenger sitting in the left or right seat would probably go
into shock at the mere sight of an airline instrument panel. Some
one with a commercial license, would immediately look for the
instruments familiar to him or her.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Jun 20, 7:30*pm, Hatunen wrote:

See the reasons I cited above. Among other things, an average
passenger sitting in the left or right seat would probably go
into shock at the mere sight of an airline instrument panel. Some
one with a commercial license, would immediately look for the
instruments familiar to him or her.

Not sure if you realize MX is a MSFS simmer, has never flown a real
plane, not a CGI, and no real world experience inside a real plane.
He just misrepresents himself as a pilot.

He doesn't understand the real world as you describe above. Your last
sentence is the key. Somebody with piloting experience would know
what the altimeter would look like in the myriad of instruments
presented in front of him or a DG for directional awareness. A non
pilot may not be so quick to identify it. Put in glass cockpit in the
mix, and you would have me lost trying to interpret the information
being presented. I simply can't imagine a non pilot trying to figure
it out especially with altitude and such.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 19:26:24 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 20, 7:30*pm, Hatunen wrote:

See the reasons I cited above. Among other things, an average
passenger sitting in the left or right seat would probably go
into shock at the mere sight of an airline instrument panel. Some
one with a commercial license, would immediately look for the
instruments familiar to him or her.

Not sure if you realize MX is a MSFS simmer, has never flown a real
plane, not a CGI, and no real world experience inside a real plane.
He just misrepresents himself as a pilot.

I'm quite familiar with Mixie. From time to time I get fed up and
killfile him, but it's usually set to expred after thirty days of
no kills, and he seems to have gone away for that long this time.

He doesn't understand the real world as you describe above. Your last
sentence is the key. Somebody with piloting experience would know
what the altimeter would look like in the myriad of instruments
presented in front of him or a DG for directional awareness. A non
pilot may not be so quick to identify it. Put in glass cockpit in the
mix, and you would have me lost trying to interpret the information
being presented. I simply can't imagine a non pilot trying to figure
it out especially with altitude and such.

While a heavy jet is a big sucker with a very complex panel
(although lighter aircraft are now sporting some pretty
compicated-looking electronci panels now) the principals are
basic for any one who has flown a plane for even a short time:
keep it level except coordinated turns. To land glide down to
near stall speed, flare at the runway apron and make it stall
just as the wheels tough the runway.

Of course, that last part takes some real practice (I failed my
first flight test on the emergency landing). I don't know if
modern airliners can, as they say, land themselves, or at least
if they all can. I m pretty sure that if the plane is set up to
land itself it has to be at a runway set up for it.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen writes:

While a heavy jet is a big sucker with a very complex panel
(although lighter aircraft are now sporting some pretty
compicated-looking electronci panels now) the principals are
basic for any one who has flown a plane for even a short time:
keep it level except coordinated turns. To land glide down to
near stall speed, flare at the runway apron and make it stall
just as the wheels tough the runway.

In an emergency, a person who isn't a pilot certified for the aircraft in
question needs to use the automation, not take the controls manually. The
latter can easily lead to disaster.

The problem is that you need actual practice in an airplane in order to become
good at handling the controls, or you need to find an expensive, full-motion
simulator for the same purpose. Having experience in a vastly different
airplane won't help you much.

In contrast, anyone can fly with automation, as long as he has instructions
from someone qualified. And cruise flight and landing are or can be automated
in large jet airliners. So the logical thing to do with an underqualified
person in the cockpit is to stick to the automation to fly and land the
aircraft.

Anyone can turn knobs and move levers, but most people require a certain
amount of practice before they can competently drive a moving vehicle.

If aircraft are similar enough, of course, this doesn't apply. One can fly one
type of Cessna single-engine prop with only experience in other models, and
not make too many mistakes (although retractable gear and pitch adjustments
can complicate things). But these small aircraft and large airliners are not
similar.

Of course, that last part takes some real practice (I failed my
first flight test on the emergency landing). I don't know if
modern airliners can, as they say, land themselves, or at least
if they all can. I m pretty sure that if the plane is set up to
land itself it has to be at a runway set up for it.

Large airliners certified for autoland (which means most airliners) can land
themselves if set up to do so, at airports with the proper equipment (which
means an ILS certified for the purpose, although in a pinch almost any ILS
might suffice). Autolands are not the rule, but in a situation like the one
under discussion, where the airplane might be flown by a non-pilot or a pilot
who doesn't have experience in type, an autoland would be the safest option,
as it requires nothing more than the aforementioned pushing of buttons,
turning of knobs, and movement of levers. No manual flying skill is required,
and manual flying skill is the one thing that you cannot provide to an
inexperienced person in the heat of an emergency.