Co-pilot gets sick, stewardess helps land airplane

"Wingnut" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:30:32 -0700, Hatunen, who had formerly been on my
side, suddenly launched an attack and called me incompetent at best and a
liar at worst.

What gives? You were the most vocal of Mxsmanic's detractors, yet now
suddenly you're taking his side against me. Is he paying you, or
providing some other consideration? Because I doubt you had a genuine,
spontaneous change of heart. Not TO rather than FROM the dark side. That
kind of thing is generally rare and generally only goes in the other
direction.

Then again, maybe you've recently suffered a head injury or something.

All I can say is this is disappointing and unfortunate. Nonetheless it
still leaves Mxsmanic with what, two allies and at least a dozen
detractors? Things are still not looking good for Mxsmanic, no matter
what dishonest tricks he might be using to try to bolster his side and
undermine mine.


What you seem to be saying is that anyone who disagrees with you must be
incompetent or a liar or must have recently suffered a head injury or
something. Usenet exists for the exchange of views and this thread has been
boringly tame so far. Not even (to use an English expression) "handbags at 4
paces". And I can never ever recollect Hatunen being a detractor of anyone.
He disagrees with Mxsmanic frequently, as do many of us, but that is just a
simple exchange of views and I have never ever noticed a trace of personal
animosity to anyone in any of his many postings over the years.
--
JohnT

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 08:50:32 +0100, JohnT wrote:

"Wingnut" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:30:32 -0700, Hatunen, who had formerly been on
my side, suddenly launched an attack and called me incompetent at best
and a liar at worst.

What gives? You were the most vocal of Mxsmanic's detractors, yet now
suddenly you're taking his side against me. Is he paying you, or
providing some other consideration? Because I doubt you had a genuine,
spontaneous change of heart. Not TO rather than FROM the dark side.
That kind of thing is generally rare and generally only goes in the
other direction.

Then again, maybe you've recently suffered a head injury or something.

All I can say is this is disappointing and unfortunate. Nonetheless it
still leaves Mxsmanic with what, two allies and at least a dozen
detractors? Things are still not looking good for Mxsmanic, no matter
what dishonest tricks he might be using to try to bolster his side and
undermine mine.

What you seem to be saying is that anyone who disagrees with you must be
incompetent or a liar or must have recently suffered a head injury or
something.

No, I'm saying that someone who just suddenly CHANGES sides like that is
PROBABLY either suffering something or has been suborned.

From the looks of things, Hatunen and Mxsmanic have been against one
another for years. Then I come along and, innocently, say:

"Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed."

This shouldn't even have been controversial but apparently Mxsmanic saw
it and has a bee in his bonnet about such things, so he posts attacking
me. And Hatunen follows him and starts posting attacking Mxsmanic.

For whatever reason Mxsmanic is really, really incensed by what I wrote,
so much so that he's very persistent, nigh-relentless, in trying to frame
me as some kind of moron or incompetent. All the while just making
himself look like a know-nothing self-styled know-it-all in front of a
brand new audience of rec.arts.tv regulars, and being flamed by Hatunen
and several other people he's apparently made enemies of over the years.

Until last week, when all of a sudden Hatunen starts flaming me instead,
apparently having gone over to Mxsmanic's side.

You aren't enemies with someone for years and then suddenly take their
side one day without some kind of precipitating incident. Head injury,
payoff, something. Considering also that Mxsmanic is simply wrong, it's
not like Hatunen just had an epiphany and saw the light or something.
That kind of thing only goes in the opposite direction.

If you say you're sure he hasn't been suborned, then I'd like to know
what you think DID convince Hatunen to abruptly switch sides in this
little dispute.

Usenet exists for the exchange of views and this thread has
been boringly tame so far. Not even (to use an English expression)
"handbags at 4 paces". And I can never ever recollect Hatunen being a
detractor of anyone.

Until now. He's just called me several nasty names in a couple of recent
posts.

He disagrees with Mxsmanic frequently, as do many of us,

or rather, he used to,

but that is just a simple exchange of views and I have never ever
noticed a trace of personal animosity to anyone in any of his many
postings over the years.

Again, until now. Personal animosity against me is dripping from his
posts of June 29 and July 1 -- condescension, lecturing at me like I'm
some wayward little child, the whole works. Standard-issue Usenet flaming
of the first kind: portray your opponent as an imbecile in need of
special hand-holding in order to discredit whatever he's been saying.
(The second kind would be to suggest, somewhat slyly, sexual peccadilloes
or outright perversion on your opponent's part; the third is simply to
come right out and blast him or her with torrents of vulgar profanity,
namecalling, accusations, and other unsubtle invective. All three amount
to logically-invalid ad hominem arguments of course.)

The key thing is that in flaming me in any of those ways he shows that he
now considers me to BE his opponent, rather than an ally against
Mxsmanic. His having switched sides is thus apparent; by the logic of
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and the evident fact that he now
regards me as an enemy, plus the older fact that Mxsmanic is my enemy,
one concludes that Mxsmanic and Hatunen have become allied; the only
remaining question is why.

The danger represented here is obvious: if one person could suddenly
switch to Mxsmanic's side, presumably others could. If Mxsmanic has
discovered some strong means of influencing others all of a sudden, it's
conceivable that he might suborn all of us into supporting his craziness.
Knowing the mechanism would allow this hazard to be better quantified.
For instance, if it's simple blackmail I'm immune, lacking any dirt in my
past for him to dig up, but he could turn the rest of the people here to
his side and then have them all gang up and hound me mercilessly about
Usenet with vicious flaming, effectively neutralizing me by discrediting
me under this name. (I'd just start using a new one, but presumably if I
touched this topic again history would repeat itself, with my words and a
Google search by Mxsmanic bringing the whole lot of 'em down on my head
like a bag of hammers.) On the other hand, if he has some kind of zombie
slave potion he's feeding people, I'd have to meet him in person under
circumstances that enabled him to slip me a mickey to be vulnerable, and
it's likely only a handful of people here are actually at risk of being
suborned. If he has some sort of bogus "proof" of his nonsense sufficient
to fool imbeciles, it won't work on me. If it's a mind control ray, I'm
in trouble -- I left my tinfoil hat behind the last time I moved
house. :-)

Wingnut writes:

From the looks of things, Hatunen and Mxsmanic have been against one
another for years.

As hard as it may be to believe, some people are neither for nor against each
other.

For whatever reason Mxsmanic is really, really incensed by what I wrote,
so much so that he's very persistent, nigh-relentless, in trying to frame
me as some kind of moron or incompetent.

I don't even remember what you wrote, so it can hardly leave me incensed.

All the while just making
himself look like a know-nothing self-styled know-it-all in front of a
brand new audience of rec.arts.tv regulars ...

Even if that were true, I'm not sure why I should care what anyone on
rec.arts.tv thinks about aviation. But it does make me smile (which is rare
these days, as I have little to smile about).

... plus the older fact that Mxsmanic is my enemy ...

OMG! Why can't we all just get along?(R)

... one concludes that Mxsmanic and Hatunen have become allied; the only
remaining question is why.

The Trilateral Illuminati Freemasons Commission insisted--it was an essential
step in their quest for world domination and mind-control. We are but pawns in
the Grand Plan. I know the location of the keystone, and I have tickets for
the Rose Line.

The danger represented here is obvious: if one person could suddenly
switch to Mxsmanic's side, presumably others could.

And civilization--as we know it--would crumble into dust.

Are you interested in discussing aviation, by chance?

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 18:05:01 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Wingnut writes:

From the looks of things, Hatunen and Mxsmanic have been against one
another for years.

As hard as it may be to believe, some people are neither for nor against
each other.

True, but not relevant to this discussion. Your disagreement had been
obvious, indeed blindingly so.

Is this a subtle attempt to rewrite history and claim that he's always
been your ally, as a means of deflecting uncomfortable questions
regarding why he switched sides? After all if he didn't switch sides
questions about why he did will look silly rather than calling your
character into question, so such a pretense would seem to serve a useful
purpose for you.

For whatever reason Mxsmanic is really, really incensed by what I
wrote, so much so that he's very persistent, nigh-relentless, in trying
to frame me as some kind of moron or incompetent.

I don't even remember what you wrote

Even though I've been reposting it several times a week lately partly
just to nettle you?

No problem. Used to be you were facing a certain death sentence, but,
these days, there are treatment options that can dramatically slow the
progression of Alzheimer's.

Anyway, here it is again:

"Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed."

All the while just making
himself look like a know-nothing self-styled know-it-all in front of a
brand new audience of rec.arts.tv regulars ...

Even if that were true, I'm not sure why I should care what anyone on
rec.arts.tv thinks about aviation.

Neither am I. Hasn't apparently stopped you flooding that newsgroup with
a lot of posts on the topic, though.

... plus the older fact that Mxsmanic is my enemy ...

OMG! Why can't we all just get along?(R)

I don't know. Why can't we? Why is it that after I posted

"Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed."

(there it is again!)

you started making repeated nasty and sly suggestions about me in public?
Insulting my intelligence repeatedly by talking down to me, suggesting
that there was something wrong with my thinking, and things like that?

It seems you cannot stand to read an opinion that differs from your own
without responding with at least a sneering and looking-down-the-nose
tone to whomever just posted it. And *that* makes it hard for anyone to
get along with you, specifically.

The bigger problem is that, while you are entitled to your own opinion,
you aren't entitled to your own facts, and your repeated implicit claim
that learning curves could veer wildly about rather than being monotonic
increasing is simply laughable from a scientific perspective.

... one concludes that Mxsmanic and Hatunen have become allied; the
only remaining question is why.

The Trilateral Illuminati Freemasons Commission insisted--it was an
essential step in their quest for world domination and mind-control.

Based on various references and other data, I compute a greater than 97%
chance that this response is a lie intended to conceal a more mundane and
sordid explanation of some sort, with a probable secondary purpose of
trying to make me look silly.

But it was not *I* that brought world domination and Freemasons into the
discussion...so who *really* is the silly one?

We are but pawns in the Grand Plan. I know the location of the keystone,
and I have tickets for the Rose Line.

Yeah, yeah, and meanwhile I'm the chairman of the shadow government of
the United States of America and with a word I could have your hometown
nuked to bedrock. :-)

The danger represented here is obvious: if one person could suddenly
switch to Mxsmanic's side, presumably others could.

And civilization--as we know it--would crumble into dust.

Perhaps nothing quote so melodramatic, but if the same happened on a
larger scale, involving many "Mxsmanics" that felt entitled not only to
their own opinions but to their own facts, we could see a repeat of what
happened the *last* time such a thing happened.

That was when the Catholic Church, in particular, gained power over much
of Europe and actively promoted ignorance and superstitious beliefs over
knowledge and science. We know the result as the Dark Ages. Witch hunts,
inquisitions, crusades. Cholera, smallpox, bubonic plague. I really don't
think we want a repeat of all that. Do you?

Are you interested in discussing aviation, by chance?

No, not really. Certainly not with you.

Wingnut writes:

True, but not relevant to this discussion. Your disagreement had been
obvious, indeed blindingly so.

Disagreement is not animosity.

Even though I've been reposting it several times a week lately partly
just to nettle you?

If I read your posts at all, I generally scan them quickly.

Neither am I. Hasn't apparently stopped you flooding that newsgroup with
a lot of posts on the topic, though.

I just click on the reply button.

Are you interested in discussing aviation, by chance?

No, not really. Certainly not with you.

Then this conversation serves no further purpose.

On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 10:52:03 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Wingnut writes:

True, but not relevant to this discussion. Your disagreement had been
obvious, indeed blindingly so.

Disagreement is not animosity.

It is when one side starts telling the world that the other side is an
idiot, or worse.

Even though I've been reposting it several times a week lately partly
just to nettle you?

If I read your posts at all, I generally scan them quickly.

Well, there's your mistake then, right there! For each post, you should
either read it thoroughly, for comprehension, or else not post a followup
to it.

Neither am I. Hasn't apparently stopped you flooding that newsgroup
with a lot of posts on the topic, though.

I just click on the reply button.

Indiscriminately, it seems. Perhaps a Tourette's tic in your right index
finger? I think they have medication for that these days. You might want
to ask your doctor about treatment options.

Are you interested in discussing aviation, by chance?

No, not really. Certainly not with you.

Then this conversation serves no further purpose.

Then I shouldn't expect to see any further posts by you.

(Yet, strangely, I find I *do* expect to see some. I wonder why?)

Wingnut wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 18:05:01 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Wingnut writes:

From the looks of things, Hatunen and Mxsmanic have been against one
another for years.

As hard as it may be to believe, some people are neither for nor against
each other.

True, but not relevant to this discussion. Your disagreement had been
obvious, indeed blindingly so.

Is this a subtle attempt to rewrite history and claim that he's always
been your ally, as a means of deflecting uncomfortable questions
regarding why he switched sides? After all if he didn't switch sides
questions about why he did will look silly rather than calling your
character into question, so such a pretense would seem to serve a useful
purpose for you.

For whatever reason Mxsmanic is really, really incensed by what I
wrote, so much so that he's very persistent, nigh-relentless, in trying
to frame me as some kind of moron or incompetent.

I don't even remember what you wrote

Even though I've been reposting it several times a week lately partly
just to nettle you?

No problem. Used to be you were facing a certain death sentence, but,
these days, there are treatment options that can dramatically slow the
progression of Alzheimer's.

Anyway, here it is again:

"Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed."

All the while just making
himself look like a know-nothing self-styled know-it-all in front of a
brand new audience of rec.arts.tv regulars ...

Even if that were true, I'm not sure why I should care what anyone on
rec.arts.tv thinks about aviation.

Neither am I. Hasn't apparently stopped you flooding that newsgroup with
a lot of posts on the topic, though.

... plus the older fact that Mxsmanic is my enemy ...

OMG! Why can't we all just get along?(R)

I don't know. Why can't we? Why is it that after I posted

"Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed."

(there it is again!)

you started making repeated nasty and sly suggestions about me in public?
Insulting my intelligence repeatedly by talking down to me, suggesting
that there was something wrong with my thinking, and things like that?

It seems you cannot stand to read an opinion that differs from your own
without responding with at least a sneering and looking-down-the-nose
tone to whomever just posted it. And *that* makes it hard for anyone to
get along with you, specifically.

The bigger problem is that, while you are entitled to your own opinion,
you aren't entitled to your own facts, and your repeated implicit claim
that learning curves could veer wildly about rather than being monotonic
increasing is simply laughable from a scientific perspective.

... one concludes that Mxsmanic and Hatunen have become allied; the
only remaining question is why.

The Trilateral Illuminati Freemasons Commission insisted--it was an
essential step in their quest for world domination and mind-control.

Based on various references and other data, I compute a greater than 97%
chance that this response is a lie intended to conceal a more mundane and
sordid explanation of some sort, with a probable secondary purpose of
trying to make me look silly.

But it was not *I* that brought world domination and Freemasons into the
discussion...so who *really* is the silly one?

We are but pawns in the Grand Plan. I know the location of the keystone,
and I have tickets for the Rose Line.

Yeah, yeah, and meanwhile I'm the chairman of the shadow government of
the United States of America and with a word I could have your hometown
nuked to bedrock. :-)

The danger represented here is obvious: if one person could suddenly
switch to Mxsmanic's side, presumably others could.

And civilization--as we know it--would crumble into dust.

Perhaps nothing quote so melodramatic, but if the same happened on a
larger scale, involving many "Mxsmanics" that felt entitled not only to
their own opinions but to their own facts, we could see a repeat of what
happened the *last* time such a thing happened.

That was when the Catholic Church, in particular, gained power over much
of Europe and actively promoted ignorance and superstitious beliefs over
knowledge and science. We know the result as the Dark Ages. Witch hunts,
inquisitions, crusades. Cholera, smallpox, bubonic plague. I really don't
think we want a repeat of all that. Do you?

Are you interested in discussing aviation, by chance?

No, not really. Certainly not with you.


I HOPE YOU PEOPLE DON'T FLY *REAL* AIRPLANES, CAUSE YOU'RE ALL NUTZZ!!!

Control tower, we have a problem...

I can now understand how you guys miss your 'destination' by five
hours!!!!

Is there anyway that you airplane news groups can cross off
alt.gossip.celebrities. We are sick of all the airplane posts which have
absolutely nothing to do with celebrity gossip. It would certainly be
appreciated.

Thanks
Wull

"The Starmaker" wrote in message
...
Wingnut wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 18:05:01 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Wingnut writes:

From the looks of things, Hatunen and Mxsmanic have been against one
another for years.

As hard as it may be to believe, some people are neither for nor
against
each other.

True, but not relevant to this discussion. Your disagreement had been
obvious, indeed blindingly so.

Is this a subtle attempt to rewrite history and claim that he's always
been your ally, as a means of deflecting uncomfortable questions
regarding why he switched sides? After all if he didn't switch sides
questions about why he did will look silly rather than calling your
character into question, so such a pretense would seem to serve a useful
purpose for you.

For whatever reason Mxsmanic is really, really incensed by what I
wrote, so much so that he's very persistent, nigh-relentless, in
trying
to frame me as some kind of moron or incompetent.

I don't even remember what you wrote

Even though I've been reposting it several times a week lately partly
just to nettle you?

No problem. Used to be you were facing a certain death sentence, but,
these days, there are treatment options that can dramatically slow the
progression of Alzheimer's.

Anyway, here it is again:

"Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed."

All the while just making
himself look like a know-nothing self-styled know-it-all in front of a
brand new audience of rec.arts.tv regulars ...

Even if that were true, I'm not sure why I should care what anyone on
rec.arts.tv thinks about aviation.

Neither am I. Hasn't apparently stopped you flooding that newsgroup with
a lot of posts on the topic, though.

... plus the older fact that Mxsmanic is my enemy ...

OMG! Why can't we all just get along?(R)

I don't know. Why can't we? Why is it that after I posted

"Consider who would have been landing the plane if something had caused
the pilot to also conk out, though. Then her prior flight experience
would have become quite relevant indeed."

(there it is again!)

you started making repeated nasty and sly suggestions about me in public?
Insulting my intelligence repeatedly by talking down to me, suggesting
that there was something wrong with my thinking, and things like that?

It seems you cannot stand to read an opinion that differs from your own
without responding with at least a sneering and looking-down-the-nose
tone to whomever just posted it. And *that* makes it hard for anyone to
get along with you, specifically.

The bigger problem is that, while you are entitled to your own opinion,
you aren't entitled to your own facts, and your repeated implicit claim
that learning curves could veer wildly about rather than being monotonic
increasing is simply laughable from a scientific perspective.

... one concludes that Mxsmanic and Hatunen have become allied; the
only remaining question is why.

The Trilateral Illuminati Freemasons Commission insisted--it was an
essential step in their quest for world domination and mind-control.

Based on various references and other data, I compute a greater than 97%
chance that this response is a lie intended to conceal a more mundane and
sordid explanation of some sort, with a probable secondary purpose of
trying to make me look silly.

But it was not *I* that brought world domination and Freemasons into the
discussion...so who *really* is the silly one?

We are but pawns in the Grand Plan. I know the location of the
keystone,
and I have tickets for the Rose Line.

Yeah, yeah, and meanwhile I'm the chairman of the shadow government of
the United States of America and with a word I could have your hometown
nuked to bedrock. :-)

The danger represented here is obvious: if one person could suddenly
switch to Mxsmanic's side, presumably others could.

And civilization--as we know it--would crumble into dust.

Perhaps nothing quote so melodramatic, but if the same happened on a
larger scale, involving many "Mxsmanics" that felt entitled not only to
their own opinions but to their own facts, we could see a repeat of what
happened the *last* time such a thing happened.

That was when the Catholic Church, in particular, gained power over much
of Europe and actively promoted ignorance and superstitious beliefs over
knowledge and science. We know the result as the Dark Ages. Witch hunts,
inquisitions, crusades. Cholera, smallpox, bubonic plague. I really don't
think we want a repeat of all that. Do you?

Are you interested in discussing aviation, by chance?

No, not really. Certainly not with you.


I HOPE YOU PEOPLE DON'T FLY *REAL* AIRPLANES, CAUSE YOU'RE ALL NUTZZ!!!

Control tower, we have a problem...

I can now understand how you guys miss your 'destination' by five
hours!!!!

Wull wrote:

Is there anyway that you airplane news groups can cross off
alt.gossip.celebrities. We are sick of all the airplane posts which have
absolutely nothing to do with celebrity gossip. It would certainly be
appreciated.

Thanks
Wull

Celebrities fly airplanes, ...and they die in them.

I was looking for a music CD, found it and wondered why these guys
didn't come out with another CD, found out they all died in a plane
crash.

Lesson is, you don't put celebrities in airplanes, you put
nobodies..nobody cares about..nobodies.

Pilot error is another way of saying you got dummies flying airplanes.

It's a taxicab in the sky..

In otherwords, they need to *start* arresting 'airplane pilots' for
Murder.


Not Doctor error,
not pilot error...
Murder.


The Starmaker

On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 15:09:36 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
Wingnut wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 18:05:01 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
Are you interested in discussing aviation, by chance?

No, not really. Certainly not with you.

I HOPE YOU PEOPLE DON'T FLY *REAL* AIRPLANES, CAUSE YOU'RE ALL NUTZZ!!!

Speak for yourself (and Mxsmanic). I'm about as sane as they come.