Trig TT21 Transponder ... reports?

On Aug 11, 3:54*pm, "John Scott" wrote:
I believe I started the thread storm about the TT21. *After having a United
737 pass directly below me by about 300'-500' while thermaling, I decided it
was time to install a transponder. *Since my plane is certified
Experimental-Amatuer built, I didn't believe I was constrained by the lack
of a TSO for the TT-21, so I ordered one, installed it, and had it certified
for operation.

I have been very happy. *I've seen airliners routing around me on several
occasions since install it. *With an CA302 & *Tasman varios, Microair Radio
recieving, Oudie, and the TT21 replying to queries while sitting on the
ground, my current draw is about 600ma.

John Scott

I know John knows this, but to be ultra clear to others the Trig TT-21
has since received TSO approval for a Mode S transponder.

BTW like most ADS-B data-out devices currently in use its currently at
the old "-A" standards level and I expect a firmware update to make
them "-B" (i.e. DO-260B) complaint to meet the FAA carriage mandate.
Trig also tells me that firmware updates will an indication that the
GPS source is feeding the ADS-B and the ability to set the transmitter
capability code bits to describe if your aircraft has a UAT or 1090ES
receiver. Currently you can only set the "1090ES" bit. Trig gets
credit for making that setting so easy to do, its not clear other
transponder vendors are/will be.

In addition to the FAA flying Trig transponder for ADS-B survey work I
though that there was at least one Trig transponders flying in a
glider with 1090ES data out today but since the pilot is being quiet
maybe its not. I do know several owners interested in playing. The
hold up on the west coast is lack of ADS-B ground infrastructure and
anybody having an ADS-B receiver to play with. I think once some geeks
get PowerFLARMs in their hands there will be more reason to play
around with the TT-21 and ADS-B data-out.

Darryl

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:
Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

John, thanks now it rings a bell, it was you I was thinking of for
having 1090ES data-out.

Thanks


Darryl

On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:
Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

On 8/18/2010 8:32 PM, Andy wrote:

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?
The included IGC logger.

--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

On Aug 18, 8:32*pm, Andy wrote:
On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:



Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.


Darryl

On Aug 18, 11:31*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32*pm, Andy wrote:





On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Thanks - I could not care less about FIS-B, so the tradeoff is having
something I don't need eventually (in-flight Notams etc IF I'm near a
ground station) vs. something I do need now (glider-glider intelligent
collision avoidance). I also like the fact that 1090ES will be
required for jets. It makes me wonder why GA wouldn't tend to adopt
1090ES since we already know that relatively affordable solutions are
available.

9B

On Aug 18, 11:31*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32*pm, Andy wrote:





On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Also - I agree the contest requirements argue heavily for a glider-
specific solution - most likely PowerFlarm in the US, since the
unfiltered ADS-B technology would lead to leech-heavy contest
behavior. I would expect it to be banned in much the same way we ban
artificial horizons.

9B

On 8/19/2010 1:47 AM, Andy wrote:
On Aug 18, 11:31 pm, Darryl wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32 pm, wrote:





On Aug 18, 10:04 am, wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Also - I agree the contest requirements argue heavily for a glider-
specific solution - most likely PowerFlarm in the US, since the
unfiltered ADS-B technology would lead to leech-heavy contest
behavior. I would expect it to be banned in much the same way we ban
artificial horizons.

9B

Why are artificial horizons banned in contests?

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 19, 10:03*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/19/2010 1:47 AM, Andy wrote:



On Aug 18, 11:31 pm, Darryl *wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32 pm, *wrote:

On Aug 18, 10:04 am, *wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Also - I agree the contest requirements argue heavily for a glider-
specific solution - most likely PowerFlarm in the US, since the
unfiltered ADS-B technology would lead to leech-heavy contest
behavior. I would expect it to be banned in much the same way we ban
artificial horizons.

9B

Why are artificial horizons banned in contests?

--
Mike Schumann

2 words: IFR gaggles. Not to mention that we fly all our contests
in controlled airspace, so you'd have to pick up instrument clearances
and thus not be on the contest frequency.

They WERE allowed at one time, though. Reichmann describes
attempting to use a climb in a towering cu to overtake the field,
except that a hailshaft developed and shot him down.

-- Matt