Just pull the little red handle!

On Aug 31, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:
On Aug 31, 12:08*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

So what else is not clear?

Do you represent the manufacturer? *If so, in what capacity?

Andy

Represent anybody? On a good day I can barely represent myself. No I
do not represent Flarm, Trig, Becker, NavWorx, or any other company
whose product you'll see me talk about in detail on r.a.s. But I care
passionately that people understand technology related to collision
avoidance. Transponders, Flarm, ADS-B, glider batteries, etc. There is
all too much confusion about this stuff. I've been flying where we
have had some mid-air collisions in the area and other incidents and
lost too many people I know to mid-air collisions. This goes back to
the day I was flying out of Minden when the Hawker and ASG-29
collided. And all the subsequent confusion and misinformation I saw on
transponders, glider batteries, ATC radar, TCAS etc. so I've worked to
especially try to educate pilots in Northern California and Nevada on
those topics.

I'm voluntarily helping the folks who are putting together the USA web
site for PowerFLARM, esp. reviewing technical content on collision
avoidance systems. And I do give (free) feedback and suggestions to
Flarm folks at times on things, just as I do to Trig and others. e.g.
You'll see features in future Trig releases that I've pushed for. I've
also worked to educate some GA industry authors on technology issues
and in discussions with both pilot organizations and some avionics
manufacturers about how ADS-B things will or will not work easily for
pilots to use. In the weeds stuff but things I want to see the
manufacturers think of and want to see reviewers start looking for as
they discuss technology and review products. And some of that is
starting to slowly appear e.g. see Max Trescott in a recent EAA Sports
Aviation Magazine nicely clarifyied an ADS-B transmitter is required
for TIS-B to be received by a UAT receiver - the first time I've even
seen something as simple and important as that mentioned in any
popular coverage of ADS-B (thanks Max).

I'm pulling together content for our annual PASCO safety seminar where
I'll be talking about collision avoidance technology so I want to know
what things people find confusing or want information on. And Urs
Rothacher CEO of Flarm is speaking at that seminar on the history of
Flarm development. Should be interesting, well his bit at least.

So seriously what else is not clear? (BTW I just found one myself,
people need the power output specs for powering an external PDA etc.
to see if it can power their PDA/PNA. Also the actual power specs of
the device are still not public AFAIK).

Thanks

Darryl

Flarm has been mandatory in Australia for at least the last 3 years in
National and regional comps. There has been no mid-airs in comps in that
time. There were on average probably one ore a little more mid-airs a year
before that.
It won't stop them all, I nearly got cleaned up by an inexperienced Pilot
this year but at least I knew he was there and I took avoiding action.
The last WGC in Hungary had about 70% Flarm, I reckon the guys without it
[on purpose for "tactical" reasons] were idiots!!
Initially the units were $500, now still under $1000 and can be linked to
maps etc. Towplanes have them too!
You guys in the US really should get on board! Whatever frequency your
government will allow should be able to be programmed in both Euroflarm
and Ozflarm.
I am seriously considering if I will fly in Uvalde or any further WGC
without mandatory Flarm.
Tom Claffey

On Aug 31, 7:26*pm, Tom Claffey wrote:
Flarm has been mandatory in Australia for at least the last 3 years in
National and regional comps. There has been no mid-airs in comps in that
time. There were on average probably one ore a little more mid-airs a year
before that.
It won't stop them all, I nearly got cleaned up by an inexperienced Pilot
this year but at least I knew he was there and I took avoiding action.
The last WGC in Hungary had about 70% Flarm, I reckon the guys without it
[on purpose for "tactical" reasons] were idiots!!
Initially the units were $500, now still under $1000 and can be linked to
maps etc. Towplanes have them too!
You guys in the US really should get on board! Whatever frequency your
government will allow should be able to be programmed in both Euroflarm
and Ozflarm.
I am seriously considering if I will fly in Uvalde or any further WGC
without mandatory Flarm.
Tom Claffey

The issue in the USA has really not been willingness to adopt Flarm
Technology amongst pilots. Flarm has not had product available for
sale in the USA. Likely for multiple reasons, including concern about
liability and the need for FCC approval which is a bit tougher than
many other countries. The choice of the actual frequncy to be used has
been done for years (and your Flarm units will probalby tune to that
frequncy if you brought them here). The first chance for USA pilots to
adopt this technology will be the upcoming PowerFLARM product.

I am not surprised at all to see Australia leading with technology
adoption(*), but the situation in the USA is a bit more complex with
more issues than airliner and GA traffic issues. That maybe makes the
PowerFLARM with 1090ES data-in/PCAS maybe even more interesting here,
but at a higher price than the older Flarm units.

Darryl
(* I am an Australian).

On Aug 31, 7:40*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
The choice of the actual frequncy to be used has
been done for years (and your Flarm units will probalby tune to that
frequncy if you brought them here). The first chance for USA pilots to
adopt this technology will be the upcoming PowerFLARM product.


More clarity requested.

If Existing FLARM supports the freq to be allocated in US why are not
manufacturers of those units jumping on the US market and getting FCC
certification. I know what freqs are supported by FLARM as I have the
documentation. What freq is being used for USA and where is that
published?

Why are we waiting for PowerFLAM with it's still undocumented new
features when FLARM products already exist?

On the other hand, if Power FLARM is being built with an RF section
that is unique to USA then potential purchasers may want to know that.
It could limit both resale value and its usefulness for US pilots that
fly overseas.

So why is US PowerFLARM not identical with PowerFLARM being marketed
to the rest of the world and are the systems interoperable?

Andy

On Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:31:59 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:


More clarity requested.

If Existing FLARM supports the freq to be allocated in US why are not
manufacturers of those units jumping on the US market and getting FCC
certification.

US lawyers and US product liability.


Regards
Andreas

Eric, as I posted earlier, on another thread, here in the UK I have
avoided the EASA paperwork problems by using a basic Flarm, held by
hook and loop tape on top of the instrument coaming, run from a
dedicated battery separate from the main glider instrument supply and
carried behind the seat, all of which I carry on to the glider as
personal equipment. The same battery drives the smallest PCAS unit,
fastened similarly and also personal carry on equipment. Total cost of
the two when I bought them was about £1000.

If you want to see a picture of my glider with its Flarm, PCAS, and
other bolt on goodies on the instrument panel, see :

http://picasaweb.google.com/cnich150...78413677251106
..


Chris N

On Sep 1, 5:51*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:

US lawyers and US product liability.

Yes, that was understood to be one of the reasons FLARM was not
available in USA in the past. I have to wonder if making US Power
FLARM somehow different from PowerFLARM sold to the rest of the world,
and having a separate a US website, is perhaps an attempt to legally
separate the two PowerFLARM variants.

I don't see how that would work though if the manufacturing company
was the same and the alerting algorithms are common to all FLARM
products.

I've been subscribed to the PowerFLARM newsletter since Feb 2010 and
have not seen any information there, or on the PowerFLARM website,
that suggests a different product will be sold in USA.

Andy

On Sep 2, 7:38*am, Andy wrote:
On Sep 1, 5:51*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:

US lawyers and US product liability.

Yes, that was understood to be one of the reasons FLARM was not
available in USA in the past. * I have to wonder if making US Power
FLARM somehow different from PowerFLARM sold to the rest of the world,
and having a separate a US website, is perhaps an attempt to legally
separate the two PowerFLARM variants.

I don't see how that would work though if the manufacturing company
was the same and the alerting algorithms are common to all FLARM
products.

You know there are often simple answers to simple questions without
getting into all these complex worries. The web content for the USA is
simply being coordinated by the USA distributor and others who want to
see appropriate USA technical content available. See other comments
below why this is needed.

I've been subscribed to the PowerFLARM newsletter since Feb 2010 and
have not seen any information there, or on the PowerFLARM website,
that suggests a different product will be sold in USA.

Yes it would be great to have more information on newsletters etc. I
don't know why that is not happening, besides the team just being
buried with work. I think most people are trusting that guys who have
delivered Flarm in the past with huge success know what they are
doing.

I've tried point out before, but will do so again, is that the reason
there needs to be a USA web site is the market is different and there
are some product differences. The market differs in ADS-B adoption/
mandates here and how ADS-B will work. Key USA issues/features like
ADS-R and TIS-B make no sense to have on a European web site but very
important to talk about on a USA web site. And because of differences
in ADS-B (and even transponders) what is said for one market can be
confusing or just plain wrong in another. The product difference I
have worried about are as simple as ButterFly is offering different
levels of flight recorder as standard in different markets, that has
already caused confusion here. That's why the flight recorder was not
mentioned on the European site and is mentioned on the Craggy Aero
site (-- I know Richard is actively working to make sure all the info
on his site is up to data and correct for the USA market) and also
needs to be on a USA product web site.

Darryl

On Sep 1, 5:31*pm, Andy wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:40*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

The choice of the actual frequncy to be used has
been done for years (and your Flarm units will probalby tune to that
frequncy if you brought them here). The first chance for USA pilots to
adopt this technology will be the upcoming PowerFLARM product.

More clarity requested.

If Existing FLARM supports the freq to be allocated in US why are not
manufacturers of those units jumping on the US market and getting FCC
certification. *I know what freqs are supported by FLARM as I have the
documentation. What freq is being used for USA and where is that
published?

We've been over the frequency here, I've said 915 MHz, there was some
innocent confusion from others and Urs from Flarm confirmed its
915MHz. Its on the 915 MHz ISM band using spread spectrum
communications. This has actually been known in the Flarm community
for a long time. Discussed on Flarm forums and it is mentioned in some
Flarm documentation (but not all versions of all docs - no I don't
know why).

Why are we waiting for PowerFLAM with it's still undocumented new
features when FLARM products already exist?

Because there are no FCC approved Flarm products from any vendor that
can legally be sold in the USA.

Flarm is busting their ass to get the new generation RF unit in
PowerFLARM FCC approved, its non-trivial work. As in previous products
the RF unit is Flarm's technology and they are buried in work getting
the certification done. I doubt they would be able to stop work on a
new generation product right now and go help others certify existing
products. Flarm is not a multinational company with unlimited
resources, they are a small group of pretty clever engineers.

On the other hand, if Power FLARM is being built with an RF section
that is unique to USA then potential purchasers may want to know that.
It could limit both resale value and its usefulness for US pilots that
fly overseas.

I know enough to say that the RF unit on the PowerFLARM is
definitively not "unique to the USA". PowerFLARM units brought here
and brought overseas will work in any location.

So why is US PowerFLARM not identical with PowerFLARM being marketed
to the rest of the world and are the systems interoperable?

Andy

The USA is different from the rest of the world. Starting with we have
no Flarm installed base here and we have ADS-B data-out rolling out
here that touches a large number of aircraft unlike anywhere else.
That combination is unique. And I suspect that is largely driving
Flarm to enter the USA market with a combined ADS-B receiver/Flarm
product. With how complex things are already with ADS-B I am actually
glad they are doing that.

Darryl