Minutes of Fall 2014 USA Rules Committee meeting posted on SSA website

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 2:32:46 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:

Having said that, if someone is using instruments to cloud fly to get an advantage, it will be readily noticeable.

Mike


If you go back and look at pilot opinion polls from a few (6 - 10 iirc) years ago, you'll see multiple complaints about guys flying above cloud base.


Evan

If you go back and look at pilot opinion polls from a few (6 - 10 iirc) years ago, you'll see multiple complaints about guys flying above cloud base.


Evan

Most of that is pre-start wispies. That's why we instituted the procedure for start height 500 feet below cloudbase. In my recollection it was not a complaint about serious cloud flying, i.e. gaining thousands of feet by going up inside cus.

John Cochrane

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 4:40:52 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
If you go back and look at pilot opinion polls from a few (6 - 10 iirc) years ago, you'll see multiple complaints about guys flying above cloud base.


Evan

Most of that is pre-start wispies. That's why we instituted the procedure for start height 500 feet below cloudbase. In my recollection it was not a complaint about serious cloud flying, i.e. gaining thousands of feet by going up inside cus.

John Cochrane

JJ reported knowing of 3 pilots icing up on a thunderstorm day. Not easy to do outside of clouds.
While we can expect (many/most?)pilots to have smart phones, some of which may have a app that could permit cloud flying for a short time, there is no justifiable reason to allow true AHRS equipment is contest sailplanes. The only reason to have that equipment is to cheat on the requirements of VFR flight that we all agree to abode by when we enter a contest.
Removing the express prohibition essentially says it is OK to make cloud flying a part of the sport.
If some foolish pilot wants to try to smart phone fly, they will likely scare themselves pretty quickly.
My bigger personal concern is the obvious extension to opening of the prohibition against information coming in on the phone. With better flight tracking, it is quite foreseeable that we will have crews watching tracks and performance of competitors and feeding that information to the pilot either by voice, or text. If you start late and your crew can tell you where the guys ahead of you are doing well, you have a huge advantage.
While true enforcement is not practical, retaining the existing philosophies and rules leaves and unsportsmanlike conduct penalty still available, if appropriate.
Availability of weather information is claimed to be a safety advantage, yet the last time this was polled(2013?) the strong majority of pilots said they wished to retain the current prohibition.
FWIW
UH

I haven't heard anyone mention reporting cloud flying contestants to the
FAA and disqualifying them from the contest. This is a clear violation
of the FARs without an IFR flight plan. Or will the violator say that
he was inadvertently "sucked up" into a cloud? Not likely given FAR
cloud clearance requirements.


On 1/12/2015 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 4:40:52 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
If you go back and look at pilot opinion polls from a few (6 - 10 iirc) years ago, you'll see multiple complaints about guys flying above cloud base.


Evan
Most of that is pre-start wispies. That's why we instituted the procedure for start height 500 feet below cloudbase. In my recollection it was not a complaint about serious cloud flying, i.e. gaining thousands of feet by going up inside cus.

John Cochrane
JJ reported knowing of 3 pilots icing up on a thunderstorm day. Not easy to do outside of clouds.
While we can expect (many/most?)pilots to have smart phones, some of which may have a app that could permit cloud flying for a short time, there is no justifiable reason to allow true AHRS equipment is contest sailplanes. The only reason to have that equipment is to cheat on the requirements of VFR flight that we all agree to abode by when we enter a contest.
Removing the express prohibition essentially says it is OK to make cloud flying a part of the sport.
If some foolish pilot wants to try to smart phone fly, they will likely scare themselves pretty quickly.
My bigger personal concern is the obvious extension to opening of the prohibition against information coming in on the phone. With better flight tracking, it is quite foreseeable that we will have crews watching tracks and performance of competitors and feeding that information to the pilot either by voice, or text. If you start late and your crew can tell you where the guys ahead of you are doing well, you have a huge advantage.
While true enforcement is not practical, retaining the existing philosophies and rules leaves and unsportsmanlike conduct penalty still available, if appropriate.
Availability of weather information is claimed to be a safety advantage, yet the last time this was polled(2013?) the strong majority of pilots said they wished to retain the current prohibition.
FWIW
UH

--
Dan Marotta

The Iphones really aren't the problem. Flight computers with AHRS, miniaturized ones you can keep in your pocket, and the fact you can cloud fly with a fast update moving map GPS is the problem. We had a bunch of wildly complex rules about disabling AHRS in flight computers, which nobody was paying any attention to. The clamor for simpler rules is also loud.

VFR flight only is expressly part of the rules and philosophy.

No voice or data communication from people on the ground will be a clear and explicit part of the rules and philosophy.

As you said, we have to rely on unsportsmanlike conduct for these. Writing rules and enforcement procedures to ban carriage of the equipment is just not feasible any more. If you're going to have a crew sending up data, and you start winning contests, you're going to have to put a lot of effort in to keeping it a secret.

BB

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 2:59:50 PM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:
The Iphones really aren't the problem. Flight computers with AHRS, miniaturized ones you can keep in your pocket, and the fact you can cloud fly with a fast update moving map GPS is the problem. We had a bunch of wildly complex rules about disabling AHRS in flight computers, which nobody was paying any attention to. The clamor for simpler rules is also loud.

VFR flight only is expressly part of the rules and philosophy.

No voice or data communication from people on the ground will be a clear and explicit part of the rules and philosophy.

As you said, we have to rely on unsportsmanlike conduct for these. Writing rules and enforcement procedures to ban carriage of the equipment is just not feasible any more. If you're going to have a crew sending up data, and you start winning contests, you're going to have to put a lot of effort in to keeping it a secret.

BB

John,

I have been to 4 contests since the wildly complex rule about disabling the AHRS in flight was adopted. I complied with the rule at all 4 contests.

Although the CD's had no idea what I was talking about or doing when I showed them and disabled the Butterfly Vario AHRS.

I agree that we should simplify the rules.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Firstly, it's impossible to keep glider pilots away from or out of clouds even in contests. Let's be honest here - we all fly into wispies and under the higher convex cloudbase of strong growing cumuli that requires us to lose some visibility as we depart through the lower cloud wall. As a colleague said: "it's a good job clouds aren't shown on igc files"!

For those of us who learned to fly in countries where cloud flying is legal (and often required), this is no big deal. My first training was done in a gyro-equipped two-seater and my first glider (Jantar-1) had a gyro turn and bank that I occasionally used. One of my UK colleagues opined that Americans were pussies being so afraid of clouds! However, I know many cross-country colleagues here in the USA who are definitely not pussies!

However, rules are rules! I try and stay mostly away from clouds when on task and I know most others do too. For contests where I fly, I could very likely interpret an igc file that showed any useful use of lift inside clouds. Climb rate typically increases dramatically inside active clouds (don't ask me how I know!) and we generally know where cloudbase is on a given task. I've seen no evidence of that to date.

As a final note, I have observed that the really good and fast pilots don't need clouds to win. They are just good and don't need to cheat.

I support the rule change.

Mike

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 9:33:11 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
Firstly, it's impossible to keep glider pilots away from or out of clouds even in contests.

Mother Nature does a pretty good job of this given prevailing pilot skills. If they enter cloud, they'll spiral dive out the bottom in a few seconds - and they won't be anywhere near the top of the score sheet. Absent instrument training, currency and competency, gyro gizmos won't help.

From the scoring standpoint, the only guy one has to worry about is a highly competent instrument pilot who has jumped through all the hoops to get glider instrument trained - the CD will probably know who these are and keep a close watch.

It's very hard to detect when a glider or aircraft enters into a cloud. But, this sensor appears to be inexpensive and could be adapted with a custom logger (match book size) and attached in the cockpit at World Championships:

Balloon-borne disposable radiometer for cloud detection

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip...1063/1.3685252

Here's another article

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d1wb0jttcz...ction.pdf?dl=0

Suppose you built 10 matchbook boxes and 100 fake ones. They would be installed on all gliders, but you never know which one has the real one. Logging of temp, RH and solar radiation could be analyzed after the fact.

Maybe this is too complex even for a World Soaring Championship. But, if cloud flying became a problem in the future, this technique would be a good deterrent.

Walt Rogers WX

On Wednesday, 14 January 2015 06:53:47 UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 2:59:50 PM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:
The Iphones really aren't the problem. Flight computers with AHRS, miniaturized ones you can keep in your pocket, and the fact you can cloud fly with a fast update moving map GPS is the problem. We had a bunch of wildly complex rules about disabling AHRS in flight computers, which nobody was paying any attention to. The clamor for simpler rules is also loud.

VFR flight only is expressly part of the rules and philosophy.

No voice or data communication from people on the ground will be a clear and explicit part of the rules and philosophy.

As you said, we have to rely on unsportsmanlike conduct for these. Writing rules and enforcement procedures to ban carriage of the equipment is just not feasible any more. If you're going to have a crew sending up data, and you start winning contests, you're going to have to put a lot of effort in to keeping it a secret.

BB

John,

I have been to 4 contests since the wildly complex rule about disabling the AHRS in flight was adopted. I complied with the rule at all 4 contests.

Although the CD's had no idea what I was talking about or doing when I showed them and disabled the Butterfly Vario AHRS.

I agree that we should simplify the rules.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

At least one in UT understood!