Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:17:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said he ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow, not because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have been a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.


Wow! Is is still winter in the northern hemisphere? How about the concept of,
"When in Rome, do as the Romans."?

Just to keep the waters churned, I submit that for an individual pilot to
begin arbitrarily making "anti-Roman" decisions is arguably crazier than
intelligently applying the "When in Rome..." philosophy.

I'll go back and hibernate, now.

Bob W.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

I'm not sure what planet you have been gliding on, but use of steering signals has been taught and used for decades, especially when radios in tugs were rare.
There is nothing fundementally dangerous about the technique when properly done.
The wake boxing skill set required in US training and licensing requires mastery and demonstration of the safe skills needed.
It ain't crazy.
UH

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:

There is nothing fundamentally dangerous about the technique when properly done.


The BGA reference (page 30) says that pulling the tug laterally has the potential to abruptly stall the vertical stabilizer of the tug, inducing a flick roll of the tug and a possible midair collision. It goes on to say "The highest risk of a lateral upset is during the
'glider cannot release' signal demonstration".


See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
TUG UPSETS):

https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/cl.../documents/aer
otownotes.pdf

If I understand the difference in idiom, the British term "flick roll"
is equivalent to the US term "snap roll". If that's correct, stalling
the vertical fin will not cause a snap roll which is a spin in the
horizontal plane. And, as we all know, a spin requires a stall with
yaw. In the case of a snap roll, it is an accelerated stall and I don't
see any change in AoA of the wing to cause that stall. But then I'm
just a poor victim if US military flight training... Or I could be
wrong on the term "flick roll". Or the BGA manual could be (horrors) wrong!

On 4/30/2015 8:33 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:

There is nothing fundamentally dangerous about the technique when properly done.

The BGA reference (page 30) says that pulling the tug laterally has the potential to abruptly stall the vertical stabilizer of the tug, inducing a flick roll of the tug and a possible midair collision. It goes on to say "The highest risk of a lateral upset is during the
'glider cannot release' signal demonstration".


See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
TUG UPSETS):

https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/cl.../documents/aer
otownotes.pdf

--
Dan Marotta

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:22:16 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
If I understand the difference in idiom, the British term "flick
roll" is equivalent to the US term "snap roll".* If that's correct,
stalling the vertical fin will not cause a snap roll which is a spin
in the horizontal plane.* And, as we all know, a spin requires a
stall with yaw.* In the case of a snap roll, it is an accelerated
stall and I don't see any change in AoA of the wing to cause that
stall.* But then I'm just a poor victim if US military flight
training...* Or I could be wrong on the term "flick roll".* Or the
BGA manual could be (horrors) wrong!

Dan, I remember reading the BGA article and I think they were referring to what the towplane did when the vertical stabilizer stalled (due to the yaw from a glider WAY out to the side). The sudden loss of all yaw stability results in the tug suddenly yawing away from the glider, and the roll due to the sudden yaw results in a pretty impressive roll. Perhaps not a classic "snap roll" but interesting nevertheless!

So many interesting things going on in this thread! For the original poster: Bob, it sounds like you have a tow pilot who needs some "counseling" on his responsibility as a tuggie. If it's a commercial operation, talk to the chief towpilot or the owner, and worse case take you business somewhere else. In a club situation, that tow pilot should be retrained, and if he continues to ignore the standards, asked to leave (it doesn't sound like he's a glider pilot).

For Dave Springford and Don Johnstone (assuming you fly in Britain), are you saying that steering turns are not done there? What if the towplane is taking you downwind over unlandable terrain, and your radio doesn't work? You would just sit there? As far as steering turns being dangerous - how so? Unless you are deliberately holding off the yaw due to the glider moving off to the side (as in boxing the wake, which should be prebriefed prior to the launch), a smart tow pilot will just let the glider gently pull him in the direction he wants to go. And you have to move out pretty far before you significantly change the flightpath of the towplane. So, a competent glider pilot will stay behind the towplane, a competent tuggie will be clearing the flight path, and working as a team, they will proceed the the optimum release point, using whatever works best (radio or signals). Where a radio is really nice is the rare situation where the glider is trying to force the tug to go somewhere he really doesn't want (like a cloud, or other traffic). Without a radio, you pretty much are stuck with standing on the rudder and the glider should realize that you are intentionally refusing to turn. But the glider should never go so far out to the side that he risks stalling the tug tail (which is really far out!). So, nothing crazy at all about it..

By the way - the military uses visual signals all the time in high speed jets, despite all sorts of fancy radios. Why talk when you can do it silently....

Finally, Dan, I know that guy! He's the glider pilot who gets pulled through a boomer multiple times, underneath a climbing gaggle, and refuses to get off until 3000'agl, which is of course when you are in the sink from that boomer! Those glider guys, they are such a hoot!

Kirk
66
(Flies on both ends of the string)

Thanks for the explanation of the "flick roll", Kirk. I hadn't
considered roll/yaw coupling because of the straight wings of the tugs.
Wouldn't a bent wing jet make a heck of a tug?

And did nobody catch my error about Australian towing? They go to LOW
to shortly after takeoff. I verified this with a Crown subject who
resides in the USA and has flown in Oz.

On 4/30/2015 10:50 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:22:16 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
If I understand the difference in idiom, the British term "flick
roll" is equivalent to the US term "snap roll". If that's correct,
stalling the vertical fin will not cause a snap roll which is a spin
in the horizontal plane. And, as we all know, a spin requires a
stall with yaw. In the case of a snap roll, it is an accelerated
stall and I don't see any change in AoA of the wing to cause that
stall. But then I'm just a poor victim if US military flight
training... Or I could be wrong on the term "flick roll". Or the
BGA manual could be (horrors) wrong!
Dan, I remember reading the BGA article and I think they were referring to what the towplane did when the vertical stabilizer stalled (due to the yaw from a glider WAY out to the side). The sudden loss of all yaw stability results in the tug suddenly yawing away from the glider, and the roll due to the sudden yaw results in a pretty impressive roll. Perhaps not a classic "snap roll" but interesting nevertheless!

So many interesting things going on in this thread! For the original poster: Bob, it sounds like you have a tow pilot who needs some "counseling" on his responsibility as a tuggie. If it's a commercial operation, talk to the chief towpilot or the owner, and worse case take you business somewhere else. In a club situation, that tow pilot should be retrained, and if he continues to ignore the standards, asked to leave (it doesn't sound like he's a glider pilot).

For Dave Springford and Don Johnstone (assuming you fly in Britain), are you saying that steering turns are not done there? What if the towplane is taking you downwind over unlandable terrain, and your radio doesn't work? You would just sit there? As far as steering turns being dangerous - how so? Unless you are deliberately holding off the yaw due to the glider moving off to the side (as in boxing the wake, which should be prebriefed prior to the launch), a smart tow pilot will just let the glider gently pull him in the direction he wants to go. And you have to move out pretty far before you significantly change the flightpath of the towplane. So, a competent glider pilot will stay behind the towplane, a competent tuggie will be clearing the flight path, and working as a team, they will proceed the the optimum release point, using whatever works best (radio or signals). Where a radio is really nice is the rare situation where the glider is trying to force the tug to go somewhere he really doesn't want (like a cloud, or other traffic). Without a radio, you pretty much are stuck with standing on the rudder and the glider should realize that you are intentionally refusing to turn. But the glider should never go so far out to the side that he risks stalling the tug tail (which is really far out!). So, nothing crazy at all about it.

By the way - the military uses visual signals all the time in high speed jets, despite all sorts of fancy radios. Why talk when you can do it silently...

Finally, Dan, I know that guy! He's the glider pilot who gets pulled through a boomer multiple times, underneath a climbing gaggle, and refuses to get off until 3000'agl, which is of course when you are in the sink from that boomer! Those glider guys, they are such a hoot!

Kirk
66
(Flies on both ends of the string)

--
Dan Marotta

might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?

http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png

as well as to Task C, number 5 of the Commercial Glider PTS (which refers to the above manual):

C. TASK: AEROTOW - MAINTAINING TOW POSITIONS
REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-13.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
5. Uses aerotow visual signals as appropriate and as directed
by the examiner.


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

Le jeudi 30 avril 2015 16:33:36 UTC+2, Bob Pasker a écrit*:
might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?

http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png


When I compare the signals on tow in your link to the signals on tow in the link of son_of_flubber (which indicates just the opposite), I think that the invention of the radio was a rather good thing.