Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le jeudi 30 avril 2015 16:33:36 UTC+2, Bob Pasker a écrit*:
might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?

http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png


When I compare the signals on tow in your link to the signals on tow in the link of son_of_flubber (which indicates just the opposite), I think that the invention of the radio was a rather good thing.

This http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html follows the dictum "Pull the tug's tail and point him in the direction that you want to go."

Ouch! They've got the signals for steering the tug backwards in that image!

On 4/30/2015 8:33 AM, Bob Pasker wrote:
might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?

http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png

as well as to Task C, number 5 of the Commercial Glider PTS (which refers to the above manual):

C. TASK: AEROTOW - MAINTAINING TOW POSITIONS
REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-13.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
5. Uses aerotow visual signals as appropriate and as directed
by the examiner.


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

--
Dan Marotta

so they do!

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 11:17:58 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ouch!* They've got the signals for steering the tug backwards in
that image!

Eek! Too true! Well, at least they fixed the "wench launch"
chapter...

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 6:30:05 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

Wow! You need to read Burt Compton's previous comments.
I guess most of us are "just plain crazy and complete idiots" but than of course we do follow the SSA's long standing standard signals on tow.
As far as I can remember properly trained, no one ever got hurt doing steering turns or boxing the wake (or similar out of position and recover maneuvers) around this hemisphere although I'm sure it can be done. But than one can misunderstand radio communications just as equally if not easier .
6PK

Don,

This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots. In the US, steering the
tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training. It is not
dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.

In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been that
most folks consider it dangerous. I find it quite enjoyable and cost
effective compared to air tow.

I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
position. That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug.

In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying. You've already read in
recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
dangerous.

So I ask you: What's dangerous? Is it what you think is dangerous
based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly, or
is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question? I think
the latter choice is more appropriate.

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.
OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.


--
Dan Marotta

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don,



This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.



In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
and cost effective compared to air tow.



I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug..



In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
dangerous.



So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
think the latter choice is more appropriate.




On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
wrote:



At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:



ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.


OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.






--

Dan Marotta

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

On 5/1/2015 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don,

This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots. In the US, steering the
tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training. It is not
dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.
Snip

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a
complete idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the
first time I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure. The duty of a
glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct position
behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you have
no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While
it is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes,
it is essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand. If
you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's
ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the
towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for
traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your
wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you
run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the
years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

I've no problem with that last paragraph.

WRT the immediately preceding paragraph, I'd suggest it's also possible to
overthink things. The O.P.'s point was he'd tried to signal a U.S. towpilot to
turn a certain direction and was ignored. THAT - by far - is the most
common/likely effect from an ignored or not understood turn signal from a
glider moving off to one side.

The U.S. (and my own) experience is gliders moving to one side or another to
silently signal a turn, works, when folks at both end of the rope are properly
trained and switched on. Those times my signal was ignored...I rationalized I
just practiced 25% of a boxed wake!

So far as I'm aware, your hypothetical scenario has never happened in the
U.S., while I know of two situations where a signaled turn presented and
responded to in a timely manner may have *prevented* the towplanes being
center-punched by light power traffic. Understand, we're talking statistical
probabilities near zero...

Bob W.

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 11:13:38 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:
The O.P.'s point was he'd tried to signal a U.S. towpilot to
turn a certain direction and was ignored. THAT - by far - is the most
common/likely effect from an ignored or not understood turn signal from a
glider moving off to one side.

this OP thanks you for bringing this full circle. and from a few towpilots' responses, my experience is borne out: some certainly don't pay attention to glider signals, except the tailwag on the ground and wingrock in the air.

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don,



This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.



In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
and cost effective compared to air tow.



I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug.



In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
dangerous.



So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
think the latter choice is more appropriate.




On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
wrote:



At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:



ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.


OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.






--

Dan Marotta

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

snip ;""I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail""
By moving the glider to wingtip position would hardly inhibit the tow pilot's ability to turn or maneuver. Yes, it should get his attention that the glider is out to the side, nothing more and nothing less. And yes; I would like to emphasize that this maneuver is not meant to be "yanking" or anything abrupt (as some previous authors implied).
It is no different, the matter affect very much the same as moving out to one side kind like boxing the wake. And I'm sure no one is suggesting "yanking the wake".
6PK