Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the numerous errors in that book.

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 9:11:03 AM UTC-6, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the left.... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the numerous errors in that book.

The SSA and SSAF tried unsuccessfully to review the draft. Note the foreword thanks to the SSA at ssa.com. When the FAA version was published, that domain was still for sale at a ridiculous price, and had been for nearly 20 years. Looks like the other SSA finally got their hands on it.

Frank Whiteley

At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
numerous errors in that book.

So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 6:00:05 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
numerous errors in that book.

So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.

In all fairness I'm sure they both meant the same. It was an unfortunate typo that god only knows why was never corrected.
On the other hand as an experienced tow pilot if someone went out on say your left side for you turning even more to the left would make little sense.
6PK

snip...if someone went out on say your left side for you turning even
more to the left would make little sense. 6PK
Actually, turning into the glider would create a lot of slack in the
rope very quickly. It makes me a bit nervous to think that there are a
lot of pilots who don't understand such simple concepts.
--
Dan Marotta

At 12:57 14 May 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
... You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended.

Excellent, Don, and very worthy of someone from a traditionally
sea-faring nation!
ROTFL.
J.

Actually... To turn you need to pull one of your oars in. You see,
pulling equally on both oars results in a straight course. I thought
that was common sense but I guess I was wrong...

On 5/14/2015 9:27 AM, James Metcalfe wrote:
At 12:57 14 May 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
... You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended.
Excellent, Don, and very worthy of someone from a traditionally
sea-faring nation!
ROTFL.
J.


--
Dan Marotta

As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:

First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications fail,
then the signals take over.

As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal -
use your head! This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think: If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does your
nose point? To the right, right? Well, that's the direction the glider
wants to go. It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make such a simple
change to an erroneous figure in their document.

On 5/14/2015 6:57 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan
Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
numerous errors in that book.
So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.


--
Dan Marotta

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:



First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
fail, then the signals take over.



As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
- use your head!* This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think:* If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
your nose point?* To the right, right?* Well, that's the direction
the glider wants to go.* It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.

Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?

If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.

At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.

We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.

Right on the head, Charlie.

When we get a new tow pilot who's not a glider pilot, we give him a lot
of guidance on what glider pilots want in addition to the FAA required
training. That said, it usually takes a couple of weeks for the new
tuggie to stop circling in dead air or simply flying straight out
that-a-way. They're always good about accepting steering commands via
radio, though not so much via a tug on the tail. Fortunately we all
have radios, but in a training environment, I always expect some tail
tugging with students on board. These are usually briefed in advance.

On 5/14/2015 11:07 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:



First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
fail, then the signals take over.



As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
- use your head! This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think: If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
your nose point? To the right, right? Well, that's the direction
the glider wants to go. It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.
Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?

If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.

At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.

We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.

--
Dan Marotta