Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 1:30:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Right on the head, Charlie.



When we get a new tow pilot who's not a glider pilot, we give him a
lot of guidance on what glider pilots want in addition to the FAA
required training.* That said, it usually takes a couple of weeks
for the new tuggie to stop circling in dead air or simply flying
straight out that-a-way.* They're always good about accepting
steering commands via radio, though not so much via a tug on the
tail.* Fortunately we all have radios, but in a training
environment, I always expect some tail tugging with students on
board.* These are usually briefed in advance.




On 5/14/2015 11:07 AM, Charlie M. (UH
& 002 owner/pilot) wrote:



On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:


As a glider pilot and tuggie, please let me try to explain:



First, the radio is always preferable but, should communications
fail, then the signals take over.



As to the SSA/FAA difference on the glider requesting a turn signal
- use your head!* This is not meant in a confrontational manner but
think:* If the glider pulls your tail to the left, which way does
your nose point?* To the right, right?* Well, that's the direction
the glider wants to go.* It's unfortunate that the FAA won't make
such a simple change to an erroneous figure in their document.


Dan, maybe you've hit one of the issues on the head...... what is the background of the tow pilot?

If a "power guy", maybe they don't like getting steered.
If a "glider guy" that tows, maybe they don't mind.

At our field, pretty much all our tow pilots are also glider guys, thus they may understand what the glider pilot wants.
They also tend to have an idea on WHO is on the other end. A low time student may just be out of shape (towplane goes straight & ignores steering) while someone with more time may want steering.

We try to tow to the "hot spot of the moment" (based on last tow) but are willing to be steered as needed for those that "may" have a better idea.





--

Dan Marotta

Glad we agree...... ROTFLMAO.......

As to "steering", there is quite a bit of difference between:
-Slide to the side to steer the towplane in a new direction
vs.
-"Yank that MoFo waaaayyyyyy out there quickly" to get steering. Not approved.

Our towpilot rule is, "When I'm about to hit any control stop, the rope goes 'bye bye'". No use in 2 holes in the ground!!!

I lost a tow pilot friend that "tried to save a tow" from a squirrel that went way too high too close to the ground.

On 5/14/2015 6:57 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
Snip...

So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.


Thanks for today's chuckle! Having difficulty letting this one go, are we? Ten
pounds says Great Britain's bureaucracies aren't the most infallible,
knowledgeable and responsive 800 pound gorillas around, either. I know this
because "Yes Minister" made its way to our side of the pond.

Our FAA - I refer to it as an organization; individually, it does have some
knowledgeable, responsive humans working in it (I've met a few of 'em) - isn't
noted for being the most sprightly of national bureaucracies...nor one of
particularly error-free, sensible pronouncements. There might be a U.S.
ratings-collecting towpilot somewhere who takes the FAA's Glider Flying
Handbook as gospel...but I doubt there's a U.S. soaring pilot who'd be happy
towing behind him if he knew!

OTOH, if you tow over here, U.S. glider-rated towpilots would Be happy to tow
you, regardless of your opinion on this particular matter. I've requested many
a steer by moving to one side or other of the trail position, preferring to
save the airwaves for truly important information. Probably over 95% of my
requests were responded to in mutually satisfactory manner...this entirely by
volunteer club towpilots. The remainder were ignored. No one died. No one got
alarmed. No ulcers were harmed. No sleep was lost.

So my experience has been that, yes, signalling to steer the tug generally
works as intended, is utterly benign when it fails to work, and is about as
much of an event as waiting for a traffic signal to change from red to green.
How sad my experience fails to match your alarmism.

Bob W.

P.S. For readers wondering why a steer might be requested in the face of
experienced-towpilot-knowledge, imagine taking the day's first tow into rising
ranges of jumbled mountains when neither of you are certain the day has begun
cooking. I've spent a lot more time scraping along the sides of various ridges
lower than most of our tuggies ever go in a towplane, and the direct route is
often considerably less expensive in bux and tug-time. Everyone benefits from
the steer...me, (arguably) the tuggie, and the glider pilots in the tow queue.
No teapot. No tempest.

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 4:33:58 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:

Our FAA - I refer to it as an organization; individually, it does have some knowledgeable, responsive humans working in it (I've met a few of 'em) - isn't noted for being the most sprightly of national bureaucracies...nor one of particularly error-free, sensible pronouncements.

It's discouraging that the soaring community cannot get the FAA to correct basic errors in the free online handbook that many new pilots find first. For every highly visible shortcoming in an information system, theory and experience says there will be hundreds of less visible shortcomings/defects. And if the process is so broken that simple sh_t like this can't get fixed, what happens on the more complicated issues?

BTW, Knauff and Grove Inc. publishes a hardcopy (second edition 2012) of the same Glider Flying Handbook that the FAA distributes. This version says 'glider pulls tug tail left to request tow to the right'. It claims that 1500 corrections were made in this edition (including spelling and grammatical errors). K & G claims a copyright on the second edition.