What Is Wrong With OLC?

OLC regards IGC files as their intellectual property. This means they are sitting on a very large basis for numerical analysis, and nobody can use it.

This is why I got involved with Skylines. I run a backup for the IGC files. Anyone wanting a dump, can contact me.

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 12:12:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
OLC regards IGC files as their intellectual property. This means they are sitting on a very large basis for numerical analysis, and nobody can use it.

This is why I got involved with Skylines. I run a backup for the IGC files. Anyone wanting a dump, can contact me.

I can download any OLC trace that is of interest to me. It may be time consuming to get large numbers of files but how many of us are really affected by this? Have you tried to get file dumps from Facebook or Google? Good luck with that. If you get a free service these days better be prepared for restrictions.
Herb

Please don't take my observations the wrong way. The idea of OLC was a great one but it is, IMO, very incomplete. It has not improved and is stagnant. It also has some perhaps undesirable side effects.

Just flying for mileage (free distance) is not really very challenging when you sit down and really think about it. It's fine, very fun at times, but don't we want some constraint capability from time to time in our fun flying?

One idea I have is that OLC or "SMFOnlineCommunitySoaring v1.0" would allow the local pilots to create a library of set tasks. Based on the weather forecast (weather would be tightly integrated into this new application) and the competing gliders performance, certain tasks can be automatically recommended or manually enabled. Imagine 100, 200 and 300km N,S,E,W. And so on. On a given day a group of pilots at a flying site could agree on and declare a task, then go try and fly it. Maybe the new application would also include a start open time to make the flight comparison more objective. Example, last glider in the group launched at 1pm, therefore no start valid before 1pm. A basic rule of set task flying which can be enabled or disabled.

Additionally, all forms of record flights and badges should/could be completed thru this new online system (declare task, submit documents witness, approve, etc). All online. All easy with beautiful functionality in a browser or via a very high quality mobile app.

The new system could also extract basic data from all uploaded flights (such as climb average) and automatically compare your flights with others globally who flew in similar conditions. Say 3-4 knot average climbs vs 6-7 and so on. Obviously, a flight with 10k AGL top of lift would yield easier distance than a flight with 4k top of lift. Or ridge or wave flights vs flatland. All of this would be considered in the comparison, categorization, conditions handicapping algorithm based on all the flights submitted over at a flying site on a given day.

I think that OLC is just way to simple (lazy) and what we all basically get, from a comparison of flights regionally, nationally or internationally perspective, leaves much to be desired. Almost worthless and highly subjective. This has resulted in many losing interest in OLC and the potential of the community is therefore fairly limited. Some form of automated "conditions handicapping" to better categorize flights flown in similar conditions (regionally, nationally and internationally) would be a great improvement. How can we begin to compare a flight in Mifflin vs. a flight in Uvalde or Minden or Chicago? We must first categorize the flight based on lift strength, top of lift, type of lift, etc. In many ways we simply cannot compare flights in these locations. A comparison has no relevance. That's the first step, flight conditions categorization would be very helpful, fairly easy to do and much more fun and interesting for all users.

I think a basic set of tasking tools to provide some objectivity to the flight scoring would be fantastic and would bring this concept to a new level. Free distance would be only one aspect of the new system in combination with basic set tasking and records. Perhaps even simple contest scoring could be added so that clubs and friends could run fun contests very easily. Also, interacted weather and automatic tasking recommendations based on skill level.


Yes, I do think that OLC has made some of us a little lazy. Many place huge importance on OLC statistics. I'm not sure why. Also, we now have fewer pilots taking the time to plan out declared tasks (area, assigned or FAI records). With OLC, it's just too easy to simply go flying and get your generic OLC "score.?" But what does that score really mean relative to another flight even at the same site were each pilot flew in a different time and/or airmass and around different turn points (let alone another distant flying site)? We also have far less US record attempts I imagine. Many gleam about "the OLC!" Because of OLC now much easier to just go out and fly "the easiest way." This results in many pilots flying much less challenging, entirely undefined cross country OLC "distance" flights (simply following the best clouds, and turning towards something better whenever the easiest path ends or weakens). The only game for most pilots now is to simply try to rack up all the easy miles available.

All this means that the idea of participating in an SSA contest (or even a fun club contest) with set area tasks (heaven forbid a MAT or Racing task) is going to be quite a shock. OLC may actually make the pilots who focus on OLC style flying a little "soft." Flying a set task requires much more problem solving skills and is often much more rewarding. We learn more. With set tasking we must figure out how to achieve the turn points (or areas), cross more holes, cross and reconnect with more lines of lift (rather than simply running straight up the most ideal area). With a set task the pilot must deal more challenges (the ideal OLC flight avoids all challenges as much as possible!). With set tasks we must learn how to change gears more, manage altitude, height bands and associated "trap" risk much more critically. Flying OLC all the time also gets pretty boring (for me at least). I feel more reward flying a set task of half the distance possible in OLC style flying on a given day.

I get it, OLC is easier and many don't care about contests or set tasks. That's a bummer. They just want to "use the day" and fly in the easiest, juiciest sky as much as possible. That's fine. But try describing this concept to someone unrelated to soaring someday and see what they find more interesting (set task or free distance). I offer that flying set tasks, once in awhile at least, might be a nice challenge (or at least a change of scenery, so to speak) and I feel it develops a "more complete" cross country soaring pilot. I think set tasks are also much more attractive to youth pilots. Set tasks are more comprehensive, more inline with international youth pilot focus and develops more skills, faster. It also prepared the kid for future contest or record soaring.

Sean

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 6:07:41 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Please don't take my observations the wrong way. The idea of OLC was a great one but it is, IMO, very incomplete. It has not improved and is stagnant. It also has some perhaps undesirable side effects.

Just flying for mileage (free distance) is not really very challenging when you sit down and really think about it. It's fine, very fun at times, but don't we want some constraint capability from time to time in our fun flying?

One idea I have is that OLC or "SMFOnlineCommunitySoaring v1.0" would allow the local pilots to create a library of set tasks. Based on the weather forecast (weather would be tightly integrated into this new application) and the competing gliders performance, certain tasks can be automatically recommended or manually enabled. Imagine 100, 200 and 300km N,S,E,W. And so on. On a given day a group of pilots at a flying site could agree on and declare a task, then go try and fly it. Maybe the new application would also include a start open time to make the flight comparison more objective. Example, last glider in the group launched at 1pm, therefore no start valid before 1pm. A basic rule of set task flying which can be enabled or disabled.

Additionally, all forms of record flights and badges should/could be completed thru this new online system (declare task, submit documents witness, approve, etc). All online. All easy with beautiful functionality in a browser or via a very high quality mobile app.

The new system could also extract basic data from all uploaded flights (such as climb average) and automatically compare your flights with others globally who flew in similar conditions. Say 3-4 knot average climbs vs 6-7 and so on. Obviously, a flight with 10k AGL top of lift would yield easier distance than a flight with 4k top of lift. Or ridge or wave flights vs flatland. All of this would be considered in the comparison, categorization, conditions handicapping algorithm based on all the flights submitted over at a flying site on a given day.

I think that OLC is just way to simple (lazy) and what we all basically get, from a comparison of flights regionally, nationally or internationally perspective, leaves much to be desired. Almost worthless and highly subjective. This has resulted in many losing interest in OLC and the potential of the community is therefore fairly limited. Some form of automated "conditions handicapping" to better categorize flights flown in similar conditions (regionally, nationally and internationally) would be a great improvement.. How can we begin to compare a flight in Mifflin vs. a flight in Uvalde or Minden or Chicago? We must first categorize the flight based on lift strength, top of lift, type of lift, etc. In many ways we simply cannot compare flights in these locations. A comparison has no relevance. That's the first step, flight conditions categorization would be very helpful, fairly easy to do and much more fun and interesting for all users.

I think a basic set of tasking tools to provide some objectivity to the flight scoring would be fantastic and would bring this concept to a new level. Free distance would be only one aspect of the new system in combination with basic set tasking and records. Perhaps even simple contest scoring could be added so that clubs and friends could run fun contests very easily. Also, interacted weather and automatic tasking recommendations based on skill level.


Yes, I do think that OLC has made some of us a little lazy. Many place huge importance on OLC statistics. I'm not sure why. Also, we now have fewer pilots taking the time to plan out declared tasks (area, assigned or FAI records). With OLC, it's just too easy to simply go flying and get your generic OLC "score.?" But what does that score really mean relative to another flight even at the same site were each pilot flew in a different time and/or airmass and around different turn points (let alone another distant flying site)? We also have far less US record attempts I imagine. Many gleam about "the OLC!" Because of OLC now much easier to just go out and fly "the easiest way." This results in many pilots flying much less challenging, entirely undefined cross country OLC "distance" flights (simply following the best clouds, and turning towards something better whenever the easiest path ends or weakens). The only game for most pilots now is to simply try to rack up all the easy miles available.

All this means that the idea of participating in an SSA contest (or even a fun club contest) with set area tasks (heaven forbid a MAT or Racing task) is going to be quite a shock. OLC may actually make the pilots who focus on OLC style flying a little "soft." Flying a set task requires much more problem solving skills and is often much more rewarding. We learn more. With set tasking we must figure out how to achieve the turn points (or areas), cross more holes, cross and reconnect with more lines of lift (rather than simply running straight up the most ideal area). With a set task the pilot must deal more challenges (the ideal OLC flight avoids all challenges as much as possible!). With set tasks we must learn how to change gears more, manage altitude, height bands and associated "trap" risk much more critically. Flying OLC all the time also gets pretty boring (for me at least). I feel more reward flying a set task of half the distance possible in OLC style flying on a given day.

I get it, OLC is easier and many don't care about contests or set tasks. That's a bummer. They just want to "use the day" and fly in the easiest, juiciest sky as much as possible. That's fine. But try describing this concept to someone unrelated to soaring someday and see what they find more interesting (set task or free distance). I offer that flying set tasks, once in awhile at least, might be a nice challenge (or at least a change of scenery, so to speak) and I feel it develops a "more complete" cross country soaring pilot. I think set tasks are also much more attractive to youth pilots. Set tasks are more comprehensive, more inline with international youth pilot focus and develops more skills, faster. It also prepared the kid for future contest or record soaring.

Sean

almost all of our clubs annual travelling trophies require a declared task. we like it that way and you still get some nice OLC points to boot.

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 7:07:41 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Just flying for mileage (free distance) is not really very challenging when you sit down and really think about it. It's fine, very fun at times, but don't we want some constraint capability from time to time in our fun flying?

How about the time constraint of "daylight" - what could be more challenging than using the full day to its maximum potential than contests that just use the easiest 2-4 hours?

I like doing declared tasks but so many pilots are all turned off by all the complicated paperwork and requirements. It is hard to convince them to spend hours filing paperwork, and chasing down observers - this is where OLC is great - the convenience of just submitting an IGC file because that is 90% as good as a declared task.

Chris

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 6:45:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:

I like doing declared tasks but so many pilots are all turned off by all the complicated paperwork and requirements. It is hard to convince them to spend hours filing paperwork, and chasing down observers - this is where OLC is great - the convenience of just submitting an IGC file because that is 90% as good as a declared task.

Chris

Hello, Fred... Fred Drift, was it?
There is no paperwork to declare and fly a task. It is done in the IGC file..
But on OLC there is no reward for flying a declared task rather than making it up as you go along.
On crosscountry.aero there is a declared task score.
Jim

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 6:07:41 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Please don't take my observations the wrong way. The idea of OLC was a great one but it is, IMO, very incomplete. It has not improved and is stagnant. It also has some perhaps undesirable side effects.

Just flying for mileage (free distance) is not really very challenging when you sit down and really think about it. It's fine, very fun at times, but don't we want some constraint capability from time to time in our fun flying?

One idea I have is that OLC or "SMFOnlineCommunitySoaring v1.0" would allow the local pilots to create a library of set tasks. Based on the weather forecast (weather would be tightly integrated into this new application) and the competing gliders performance, certain tasks can be automatically recommended or manually enabled. Imagine 100, 200 and 300km N,S,E,W. And so on. On a given day a group of pilots at a flying site could agree on and declare a task, then go try and fly it. Maybe the new application would also include a start open time to make the flight comparison more objective. Example, last glider in the group launched at 1pm, therefore no start valid before 1pm. A basic rule of set task flying which can be enabled or disabled.

Additionally, all forms of record flights and badges should/could be completed thru this new online system (declare task, submit documents witness, approve, etc). All online. All easy with beautiful functionality in a browser or via a very high quality mobile app.

The new system could also extract basic data from all uploaded flights (such as climb average) and automatically compare your flights with others globally who flew in similar conditions. Say 3-4 knot average climbs vs 6-7 and so on. Obviously, a flight with 10k AGL top of lift would yield easier distance than a flight with 4k top of lift. Or ridge or wave flights vs flatland. All of this would be considered in the comparison, categorization, conditions handicapping algorithm based on all the flights submitted over at a flying site on a given day.

I think that OLC is just way to simple (lazy) and what we all basically get, from a comparison of flights regionally, nationally or internationally perspective, leaves much to be desired. Almost worthless and highly subjective. This has resulted in many losing interest in OLC and the potential of the community is therefore fairly limited. Some form of automated "conditions handicapping" to better categorize flights flown in similar conditions (regionally, nationally and internationally) would be a great improvement.. How can we begin to compare a flight in Mifflin vs. a flight in Uvalde or Minden or Chicago? We must first categorize the flight based on lift strength, top of lift, type of lift, etc. In many ways we simply cannot compare flights in these locations. A comparison has no relevance. That's the first step, flight conditions categorization would be very helpful, fairly easy to do and much more fun and interesting for all users.

I think a basic set of tasking tools to provide some objectivity to the flight scoring would be fantastic and would bring this concept to a new level. Free distance would be only one aspect of the new system in combination with basic set tasking and records. Perhaps even simple contest scoring could be added so that clubs and friends could run fun contests very easily. Also, interacted weather and automatic tasking recommendations based on skill level.


Yes, I do think that OLC has made some of us a little lazy. Many place huge importance on OLC statistics. I'm not sure why. Also, we now have fewer pilots taking the time to plan out declared tasks (area, assigned or FAI records). With OLC, it's just too easy to simply go flying and get your generic OLC "score.?" But what does that score really mean relative to another flight even at the same site were each pilot flew in a different time and/or airmass and around different turn points (let alone another distant flying site)? We also have far less US record attempts I imagine. Many gleam about "the OLC!" Because of OLC now much easier to just go out and fly "the easiest way." This results in many pilots flying much less challenging, entirely undefined cross country OLC "distance" flights (simply following the best clouds, and turning towards something better whenever the easiest path ends or weakens). The only game for most pilots now is to simply try to rack up all the easy miles available.

All this means that the idea of participating in an SSA contest (or even a fun club contest) with set area tasks (heaven forbid a MAT or Racing task) is going to be quite a shock. OLC may actually make the pilots who focus on OLC style flying a little "soft." Flying a set task requires much more problem solving skills and is often much more rewarding. We learn more. With set tasking we must figure out how to achieve the turn points (or areas), cross more holes, cross and reconnect with more lines of lift (rather than simply running straight up the most ideal area). With a set task the pilot must deal more challenges (the ideal OLC flight avoids all challenges as much as possible!). With set tasks we must learn how to change gears more, manage altitude, height bands and associated "trap" risk much more critically. Flying OLC all the time also gets pretty boring (for me at least). I feel more reward flying a set task of half the distance possible in OLC style flying on a given day.

I get it, OLC is easier and many don't care about contests or set tasks. That's a bummer. They just want to "use the day" and fly in the easiest, juiciest sky as much as possible. That's fine. But try describing this concept to someone unrelated to soaring someday and see what they find more interesting (set task or free distance). I offer that flying set tasks, once in awhile at least, might be a nice challenge (or at least a change of scenery, so to speak) and I feel it develops a "more complete" cross country soaring pilot. I think set tasks are also much more attractive to youth pilots. Set tasks are more comprehensive, more inline with international youth pilot focus and develops more skills, faster. It also prepared the kid for future contest or record soaring.

Sean

Sean, disagree with you on a lot of your points. OlC scores pilots in SSA Regions which are typically similar regarding geography and weather. Comparisons between pilots inside a Region are meaningful when looked at over a season. OLC has a Speed score portion that allows you to find the speed for the fastest 2.5 hours of a given flight. Speed Champions are determined for each Region and nationally.
Finally, OLC strongly encourages FAI triangles via a bonus point system. You will be badly beaten by a pilot flying a valid triangle vs your much longer flight using all allowed 6 legs (5 turn points) and just meandering around. Maybe you should look a bit deeper into the rules (you love rules, don't you?). I know a lot of non-lazy pilots who enjoy long challenging flights and like the instant scoring available in the evening.

Herb

Sean,

You're comparing apples and oranges. OLC is not a competition for most people in the classic sense unless you really want to treat it as such. It's mostly a positive reinforcement to put your flights into an online logbook, plus a little pat on your shoulder if you had a particularly long flight relative to whatever else has been going on in your area. Most people just like collecting their experiences and sharing them with others.

I enjoy distance flying and it is motivating to work towards having six really big flights. True distance flying uses similar flight optimization skills as contest flying. If you fly faster, you make more miles. It's incredibly fun to launch into the first cloud in the sky and breathe a sigh of relief when you hit final glide altitude under the last dying one.

I also learned a tremendous amount by studying other flights. I have looked at every OLC track originated from Blairstown since 2007. It helped to learn all different styles, techniques, routes, etc rather than having to reinvent the wheel for myself.

It helps to not take it too seriously. I will admit to having done several laps on my ridge too many for the sake of OLC points, but it is largely a secondary motivator to just getting out there and wanting to make a nice long distance flight.

Best Regards,
Daniel

(PS: Yo Erik, dig up your comparison of OLC versus Contest pilots for laughs!)

I'm not sure why I'm being included in this conversation again and again. You boys are never going to convince me that OLC is meaningful or cool. It's not. But knock yourselves out trying. Keep focusing on uploading free distance flights. Keep morphin US contest tasking (global laughing stock) into the same boring non-sport. Clearly, many here are highly sensitive and even personally offended by my criticisms of OLC. Not my intention not my problem. I simply think OLC is bad for soaring. It's creating bad pilots who complain unless they are free to only follow the best clouds all afternoon.

OLC has, IMO, has created some very poor attitudes about what soaring is as a sport

This thread is aptly titled "What's wrong with OLC." Yes, I know this was in regards to account issues. Perhaps a better title could be "What's the value of a soaring website that pretends to score completely unrelatable free distance cross country glider flights worldwide and why do people actually care about this?"

How OLC became one of the most popular websites in soaring is curious to me.. I find its content (scoring) to be very low quality (random follow best clouds flying). It feels
like the lowest common denominator. We should be challenging ourselves more. Not just flying OLC. For me, and many others, OLC is so boring. It feels like a wasted opportunity to do something useful and challenging with a soaring day. It borders on being completely useless. This remains my opinion.

Sorry if this upsets you, but I feel we should try and get more out of cross country flying at least some significant portion of our flights. OLC lowers the common denominator.

Here is a little comedy relief. OLC is like shopping at the gap for all your clothes. Remember the movie "Crazy, Stupid Love?" Take a deep breath and watch this clip: https://youtu.be/-KsoPAXS0ME

Be better than than OLC. BE BETTER THAN THE GAP! There is so much more to soaring Than following the easiest possible path.

Sean

On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 07:09:21 UTC+2, Sean Fidler wrote:
I'm not sure why I'm being included in this conversation again and again.
Sean

Possibly because you wrote to this thread?