Hero emulation

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 12:08:29 AM UTC-5, Tom wrote:
Oh, I forgot - there is a good argument that a low pass is not legal. That whole minimum altitude over "a congested area but “not for the purpose of takeoff or landing.� Take a look at 91.119, make your call eyes wide open. Sorry to take all the fun out of it. I know - there's many rationalizations, justifications and arguments. Not trying to pick a fight - just pointing out some issues with the practice of this maneuver.

Tom
When you pull out the rule book you've already lost.

"When you pull out the rule book you've already lost."

Sorry Greg - When you pull out the rule book, you are a disciplined pilot. They aren't suggestions, they are rules of flight.

Lou

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 7:15:44 AM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
"When you pull out the rule book you've already lost."

Sorry Greg - When you pull out the rule book, you are a disciplined pilot. They aren't suggestions, they are rules of flight.

Lou

And . . . there are Rules and Laws.

You can find loopholes in the Rules and survive but never break the Laws of physics, gravity, aerodynamics. Per my mentor: Fritz Compton, circa 1967.

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 8:15:44 AM UTC-5, MNLou wrote:
"When you pull out the rule book you've already lost."

Sorry Greg - When you pull out the rule book, you are a disciplined pilot.. They aren't suggestions, they are rules of flight.

Lou

Well then let's go Jihad with 91.119. The low pass is as old as the modern sailplane and is universal throughout the soaring world. Low passes are a normal approach technique for gliders, thus legal.
Now all ye disciplined safe pilots who follow the rules of flight because it is the law, and the safe thing to do. 91.119 says (b)Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c)Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
If you look at enforcement cases the FAA has a very broad definition of 'congested area' and a limited one of 'sparsely populated.' Of course straight up not non subjective we have 500' from a 'person, vehicle or structure.' That's 500' from a hiker on a ridge. Or a ridgetop house. Two houses and you better be 1,000' over.
Farewell and adieu ridge soaring and picking thermals off slopes.
Those are the rules, and if we are to be good and safe pilots we must follow the rules, all of them, all of the time.

Roger - completely understand where you are coming from Greg - I 100% get what you are saying. As I've said before I know I can't change people's minds who are firmly ensconced in their mindset and I won't try. Best of luck to you Greg.

For others - please consider my multiple other points, put it in your risk/benefit analysis machine and process it yourself. Best of luck to all.

Regards,
Tom

I'm sorry Greg, what have I "lost"? I made a number of points including the regulations and as a former accident investigator plus being a professional pilot for a long time it concerns me that your rebuttal was focused only on the regulation point. If I lose someone because I pointed out regulations then I shouldn't even bring it up?

I hate internet arguments and really try to meter my responses. I get a lot out of this forum and as one of my students read it and asked me offline about this thread I thought I'd weigh in. But, as I said, I'm not going to be able to change someone's mind that has justified and rationalized their decision. I simply hope someone who is on the fence or needs a little reinforcement or nudge to fly within their limitations thoughtfully takes in all the input and decides and acts eyes wide open.

Points to ponder:

In making a concerted decision - the rules do play a valid role. Will I be violated, will I be held criminally or civilly liable? What is my responsibility? Picture yourself on the stand being cross examined by a pit bull attorney in front of a jury of aviation ignorant "peers" - your "Few Good Men" Jack Nicholson moment.

As an instructor and or mentor, is it "do as I say and not do what I do?"

Did just I do something that has huge impacts and consequences for others?

Once the slippery slope of risk/reward decision making is headed downhill and positive reinforcement is helping in gradually letting one's standards slip - where is the tipping point?

What is my prevalent hazardous attitude and how does it effect my decision making process?

Hey - I have lot fun flying. I've had to manage a lot of risk/reward from many different perspectives and professions - I've seen some awful consequences when people have not done their due diligence or didn't know what they didn't know. I wanted to contribute in a thoughtful way about what we do, how we decide and how we manage risk. Not everyone thinks about these things - the human factors that play such an important role.

Have fun and be safe,

Tom

On 2/24/2018 7:42 AM, Tom wrote:
I wanted to contribute in a thoughtful way about what we do, how we decide and how we manage risk. Not everyone thinks about these things - the human factors that play such an important role.
Sir, you have succeeded!
--
Dan, 5J

On 2/24/2018 8:32 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:


On 2/24/2018 7:42 AM, Tom wrote:
I wanted to contribute in a thoughtful way about what we do, how we
decide and how we manage risk. Not everyone thinks about these things -
the human factors that play such an important role.
Sir, you have succeeded!

+1

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Getting back to the topic of talented by inexperienced pilots teaching themselves to do low passes...

Here's a Soaring RX column about how human factors affects low passes http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...8-19-20-21.pdf

Dr. Dan walks us through a pilot completing his first low pass and explains some of the human factors as they come to fore. Spoiler Alert. Like most first low passes, nobody dies.