Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 7:45:06 AM UTC+11, Chris Rowland wrote:
At 19:57 28 March 2018, S2 wrote:
The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground
is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that
much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is
on
the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.


The UK BGA has specified a standard set of signals that make sense, work
and are used universally. They have the huge advantage that you can go to
a different club and get or help with a launch with minimal confusion or
misunderstanding.

There are differences between clubs, for example Sutton Bank use a separate
signaller while at Booker the wing runner does the signalling. The signals
are the same. We were able to adapt within a few seconds.

Doesn't the USA have something similar?

Chris

Aah, but you're in the UK. The USA is the land of individualism, where a nationally adopted procedure might be seen as some kind of socialist imposition :-)



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Yes, we do. Since the late 1940's the SSA/Soaring Safety Foundation has had a standard set of signals. http://soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

The FAA Glider Flying Handbook includes these standard signals. They are part of training of every glider pilot. This being the USA, however, most people are pretty sure they have a better idea.

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 1:51:08 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
Yes, we do. Since the late 1940's the SSA/Soaring Safety Foundation has had a standard set of signals. http://soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

The FAA Glider Flying Handbook includes these standard signals. They are part of training of every glider pilot. This being the USA, however, most people are pretty sure they have a better idea.

Ah, but Tony, they occasionally change - ref the signal to STOP - and are obviously not carved in stone. When they were first established, was there any consideration of the need to keep a modern tanked glider level if carrying water? Or the need to level the wings long enough to balance a partial load? Or of the development of tow rope winches for towplanes? All these result in local (or situational - races) changes to the "standard" rules.

Back to the wingrunner "start the launch" signal - I can see the utility of it as a repeat of the PICs final signal (rudder waggle). Emphasis on REPEAT, "foot stomp", because I do not want the decision to launch made by the wing runner. And perhaps it is a local problem, but I often look in the mirror and watch the wing get raised (glider pilot gave the wing runner the thumbs up "ready" signal) then immediately the wing runner gives the takeoff sign - followed by the pilot giving the rudder waggle!

Maybe now that it's the 21th century we should require actual communication between the tow and glider pilot!

It's nice that the Brits have a standardized system. Does all of Europe? Just watched a video of the Diana 3 launching, and all I saw was a rudder waggle. All the wing runner did was hold the wing level. What is the process in France? Germany? Poland?

Anyway, discussion is good and fun. Come on Cu's!

66

The signals were developed in the late 1940's, before water ballasted gliders (besides the SGS 1-21) and back when gliders mostly sat on their noses with the tail up in the air for all to see.

The SSF strongly recommends that when the glider and towplane are radio equipped (as almost all are these days) that radio calls be made along with standard soaring signals.

I generally don't let the ground crew hook up the rope until I'm ready to launch and I definitely don't give them a thumbs up unless I'm ready to launch.

The BGA signals were developed long ago, before modern gliders and water
ballast. They don't depend on the glider attitude or control movements.
They were initially designed for winch launching.

The way I see it the wing runner/signaller is in a better position to see
things that could go wrong, such as cable overruns or people landing, than
the pilot.

Chris

At 17:40 30 March 2018, Tony wrote:
The signals were developed in the late 1940's, before water ballasted
gliders (besides the SGS 1-21) and back when gliders mostly sat on their
noses with the tail up in the air for all to see.

The SSF strongly recommends that when the glider and towplane are radio
equipped (as almost all are these days) that radio calls be made along
with
standard soaring signals.

I generally don't let the ground crew hook up the rope until I'm ready to
launch and I definitely don't give them a thumbs up unless I'm ready to
launch.

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:40:32 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
The signals were developed in the late 1940's, before water ballasted gliders (besides the SGS 1-21) and back when gliders mostly sat on their noses with the tail up in the air for all to see.

The SSF strongly recommends that when the glider and towplane are radio equipped (as almost all are these days) that radio calls be made along with standard soaring signals.

I generally don't let the ground crew hook up the rope until I'm ready to launch and I definitely don't give them a thumbs up unless I'm ready to launch.

I'd like to propose some r.a.s. hand signals.

The procedure in most European countries I've flown is very simple:
No radio communication, no take-off.
It's the 21st century.

I fly from a place where tow planes don't have radios. When I fly from another operation that have radio equipped tow planes (everywhere else I fly from) I consciously have to tell myself I have comms with tow plane.

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 12:06:03 AM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
The procedure in most European countries I've flown is very simple:
No radio communication, no take-off.
It's the 21st century.

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 3:06:03 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
The procedure in most European countries I've flown is very simple:
No radio communication, no take-off.
It's the 21st century.

We have radios in all of our aircraft. We simply prefer not to clutter the air waves, there is plenty of that already. Hand signals work fine for routine hook up and launch procedures. Towplanes make departure calls of course. Radio calls between tow plane and glider are not discouraged. The 21st century exists in America too.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8