ASW-19 Maximum Weight

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 8:12:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 5:19:34 PM UTC-4, Ouroboros wrote:
Here's a link to a copy of the manual:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TUV...w?usp=drivesdk

I only see mention of a maximum all up weight and maximum non lifting parts. The manual does have a table for maximum water ballast carried depending on cockpit load, but again is only limited by max gross and non lifting parts.

The manual(note it is for a 19B) is clear. If you have the weighing info that provides wing weight,in addition to total empty weight, you can determine the max pilot weight for that glider based upon max weight of non lifting components. The manual specifically describes fairly heavy pilot mass in the cockpit.
If it is not a B, there is descriptive info on the Schleicher web site on how to do so. It is not a big deal.
Been There Done That
UH

Info:
https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/..._TM06AB_E..pdf

Raises max mass of pilot to about 254 lb.

UH

That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not in the manual.

At 01:37 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the
limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not in
the manual.


Unless I am missing something all you need to know is the particular
gliders actual (not assumed manufactured) weight of the non-lifting parts.

The max pilot (actually payload, pilot / parachute / ballast weights /
onboard snacks etc) weight is then the lower of:

a) Weight of the actual non-lifting parts subtract from the manuals max
non-lifting parts weight of 230kg (507lbs).
Or
b) 115kg (253.4lbs) which the manuals max pilot weight.
Or
c) The max all up weight less the empty weight (very unlikely to come into
play)

This all assumes that the empty CofG limit is inside the manual
limitations.

The max weight without water is not relevant and most new aircraft don't
list it. You know the max non-lifting parts weight (the critical point due
to bending loads), and the max all up weight inc water
(undercarriage/structural and flight stress loads), then the difference has
to be all in the wings. The aircraft doesn't know if the wings weight is
structure or water so is happy to fly!

At 11:52 19 October 2018, Jonathan Walker wrote:
At 01:37 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the
limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not in
the manual.

------------
Ill try again and see if it still chops off the end of each sentence!!!
------------

Unless I am missing something all you need to know is the particular
gliders actual (not assumed manufactured) weight of the non-lifting parts.

The max pilot (actually payload, pilot / parachute / ballast weights /
onboard snacks etc) weight is then the lower of:

a) Weight of the actual non-lifting parts subtract from the manuals max
non-lifting parts weight of 230kg (507lbs).
Or
b) 115kg (253.4lbs) which the manuals max pilot weight.
Or
c) The max all up weight less the empty weight (very unlikely to come into
play)

This all assumes that the empty CofG limit is inside the manual
limitations.

The max weight without water is not relevant and most new aircraft don't
list it. You know the max non-lifting parts weight (the critical point due
to bending loads), and the max all up weight inc water
(undercarriage/structural and flight stress loads), then the difference has
to be all in the wings. The aircraft doesn't know if the wings weight is
structure or water so is happy to fly!

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 8:00:05 AM UTC-4, Jonathan Walker wrote:
At 01:37 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the
limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not in
the manual.


Unless I am missing something all you need to know is the particular
gliders actual (not assumed manufactured) weight of the non-lifting parts.

The max pilot (actually payload, pilot / parachute / ballast weights /
onboard snacks etc) weight is then the lower of:

a) Weight of the actual non-lifting parts subtract from the manuals max
non-lifting parts weight of 230kg (507lbs).
Or
b) 115kg (253.4lbs) which the manuals max pilot weight.
Or
c) The max all up weight less the empty weight (very unlikely to come into
play)

This all assumes that the empty CofG limit is inside the manual
limitations.

The max weight without water is not relevant and most new aircraft don't
list it. You know the max non-lifting parts weight (the critical point due
to bending loads), and the max all up weight inc water
(undercarriage/structural and flight stress loads), then the difference has
to be all in the wings. The aircraft doesn't know if the wings weight is
structure or water so is happy to fly!

This is a full description of where I was leading. Well stated.
UH

What about the weight of the horizontal stabilizer?Â* Given that it
produces negative lift and contributes to the bending loads on the main
spar, is it considered a lifting part or part of the non lifting components?

On 10/19/2018 5:52 AM, Jonathan Walker wrote:
At 01:37 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the
limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not in
the manual.

Unless I am missing something all you need to know is the particular
gliders actual (not assumed manufactured) weight of the non-lifting parts.

The max pilot (actually payload, pilot / parachute / ballast weights /
onboard snacks etc) weight is then the lower of:

a) Weight of the actual non-lifting parts subtract from the manuals max
non-lifting parts weight of 230kg (507lbs).
Or
b) 115kg (253.4lbs) which the manuals max pilot weight.
Or
c) The max all up weight less the empty weight (very unlikely to come into
play)

This all assumes that the empty CofG limit is inside the manual
limitations.

The max weight without water is not relevant and most new aircraft don't
list it. You know the max non-lifting parts weight (the critical point due
to bending loads), and the max all up weight inc water
(undercarriage/structural and flight stress loads), then the difference has
to be all in the wings. The aircraft doesn't know if the wings weight is
structure or water so is happy to fly!



--
Dan, 5J

At 14:31 19 October 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
What about the weight of the horizontal stabilizer?Â* Given that it
produces negative lift and contributes to the bending loads on the main
spar, is it considered a lifting part or part of the non lifting
components?

All except the wings are non-lifting parts in terms of the weight
scheduled.


On 10/19/2018 5:52 AM, Jonathan Walker wrote:
At 01:37 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the
limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not
in
the manual.

Unless I am missing something all you need to know is the particular
gliders actual (not assumed manufactured) weight of the non-lifting
parts.

The max pilot (actually payload, pilot / parachute / ballast weights /
onboard snacks etc) weight is then the lower of:

a) Weight of the actual non-lifting parts subtract from the manuals max
non-lifting parts weight of 230kg (507lbs).
Or
b) 115kg (253.4lbs) which the manuals max pilot weight.
Or
c) The max all up weight less the empty weight (very unlikely to come
into
play)

This all assumes that the empty CofG limit is inside the manual
limitations.

The max weight without water is not relevant and most new aircraft
don't
list it. You know the max non-lifting parts weight (the critical point
due
to bending loads), and the max all up weight inc water
(undercarriage/structural and flight stress loads), then the difference
has
to be all in the wings. The aircraft doesn't know if the wings weight
is
structure or water so is happy to fly!



--
Dan, 5J

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:45 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
What about the weight of the horizontal stabilizer?Â* Given that it
produces negative lift and contributes to the bending loads on the main
spar, is it considered a lifting part or part of the non lifting components?

On 10/19/2018 5:52 AM, Jonathan Walker wrote:
At 01:37 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the
limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not in
the manual.

Unless I am missing something all you need to know is the particular
gliders actual (not assumed manufactured) weight of the non-lifting parts.

The max pilot (actually payload, pilot / parachute / ballast weights /
onboard snacks etc) weight is then the lower of:

a) Weight of the actual non-lifting parts subtract from the manuals max
non-lifting parts weight of 230kg (507lbs).
Or
b) 115kg (253.4lbs) which the manuals max pilot weight.
Or
c) The max all up weight less the empty weight (very unlikely to come into
play)

This all assumes that the empty CofG limit is inside the manual
limitations.

The max weight without water is not relevant and most new aircraft don't
list it. You know the max non-lifting parts weight (the critical point due
to bending loads), and the max all up weight inc water
(undercarriage/structural and flight stress loads), then the difference has
to be all in the wings. The aircraft doesn't know if the wings weight is
structure or water so is happy to fly!



--
Dan, 5J

"Max weight of non lifting components (everything except wings)" - from BGA TCDS. Flight manual is silent on what it is.

From https://members.gliding.co.uk/wp-con...312108_4-1.pdf , "AMP4-1/Nov 05
BGA AMP Part 4, Leaflet 4-1, Page 1
BGA AIRWORTHINESS AND MAINTENANCE PROCEDURES
PART 4, LEAFLET 4-1
GLIDER WEIGHT AND BALANCE",

"on-Lifting Parts:
"For sailplanes where the Leading Particulars specify a maximum weight
of non-lifting parts, it will additionally be necessary to weigh the wings to enable the weight of the fuselage and tailplane to be calculated; this is the empty weight of non-lifting parts. "

CS-22 doesn't appear to talk about it.

Jonathan: I agree that the max weight without water shouldn't be relevant, but I'm not the one that needs to be convinced. The last two people to do weight and balance for this glider both used the number from the TCDS.

805-609=196 lbs max pilot weight.

How do I convince someone to ignore the number in the TCDS?

At 17:19 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
Jonathan: I agree that the max weight without water shouldn't be
relevant,
but I'm not the one that needs to be convinced. The last two people to do
weight and balance for this glider both used the number from the TCDS.

805-609=196 lbs max pilot weight.

How do I convince someone to ignore the number in the TCDS?


You need to do the sums and see what the max pilot weight comes out at
first. ie. the max non lifting part less the current non lifting parts. It
may be that comes to 196lbs or have you already done those numbers? Without
this you cannot move forward. It could even be that the max pilot weight is
less than 196lbs!!!!

If the previous paperwork doesn't have the current weight of the non
lifting parts then there would be a suspicion that the calculations haven't
been done correctly. Not uncommon.....