looking for advice on lead n follow flights

I have done a lot of lead-follow training over the years. Very good Power Flarm helps with the correct hardware. You need a good PF core with solid antennas and hardware such as a Oudie or LX9000 display.

Using Team Codes can be very useful. Establish the reference point between the pilots before flight. Very simple after that to give or receive exact locations between pilots. You can use a goto the other pilot and they can fly directly to your location.

As Mike said, the lead pilot has to be ready to pull the boards and join the following pilot at their altitude.

I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.

What happens if the distance becomes to big (10-15km) and I as leader finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.

Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do the leader have a few options:
- To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to give the followers the time to catch up
- Stay at could base to wait until the followers has the same height until leaving
- Pull the brake to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows
- The follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the sepperation bigger.

To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.

This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas (without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

Dave Watt helped me a great deal when I was learning down here in thermal
land. The take away lesson for lead and follow is simple: Follow means
follow. As soon as the follower does his / her own thing it goes to worms.

Agree to stay close, play safe, do not stretch the follower out, don't get
separated in height more than a couple of hundred feet, and be prepared to
wait around.

I am very grateful to Watty that he was prepared to help me in this way
back then (not sure he will anymore though!)

Jim

At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
bet=
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
eyesight=
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a
radio.=

Thanks Per,
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit that
looks
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.

On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the same place
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less issues with
lift
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not zero, but less)

The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at cruising alt.
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead n
follow.

So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k away from
them to check the next bit.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
bet=
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
eyesight=
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a
radio.=

Thanks Per,
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit that
looks
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.

On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the same place
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less issues with
lift
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not zero, but less)

The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at cruising alt..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead n
follow.

So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k away from
them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine US. Everyone is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is extremely technical, landables fairly sparse.

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave, but even sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time. A mile of altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information to each other.

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult by high wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track. "North Up" probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not flown the most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your ground speed is very low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be 100% responsible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing. Not taking the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie.

best,
Evan / T8

At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
as possible
bet=3D
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
within
eyesight=3D
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a
radio.=3D
=20
Thanks Per,=20
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
that
looks=20
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
=20
On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
same
place=
=20
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
issues
wit=
h
lift=20
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
zero, but
less=
)
=20
The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
cruising
alt=
..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
n
follow.
=20
So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
away from=
=20
them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
US.
Every=
one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
extremely
tech=
nical, landables fairly sparse. =20

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
but
e=
ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
A mile
o=
f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
to each
=
other.=20

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
by high
=
wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
"North
Up"=
probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
flown
t=
he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
ground speed is
v=
ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
100%
respons=
ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
Not
taking=
the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20

best,
Evan / T8


I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
feel.
You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
"I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
in the cloud"
So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
pressure on him that he doesn't need.
There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
settings
that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
mine.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 9:45:04 AM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
as possible
bet=3D
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
within
eyesight=3D
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a
radio.=3D
=20
Thanks Per,=20
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
that
looks=20
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
=20
On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
same
place=
=20
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
issues
wit=
h
lift=20
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
zero, but
less=
)
=20
The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
cruising
alt=
..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
n
follow.
=20
So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
away from=
=20
them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
US.
Every=
one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
extremely
tech=
nical, landables fairly sparse. =20

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
but
e=
ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
A mile
o=
f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
to each
=
other.=20

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
by high
=
wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
"North
Up"=
probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
flown
t=
he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
ground speed is
v=
ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
100%
respons=
ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
Not
taking=
the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20

best,
Evan / T8


I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
feel.
You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
"I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
in the cloud"
So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
pressure on him that he doesn't need.
There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
settings
that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
mine.

That's the thing. 1000hrs of XC in thermals isn't all that useful for safety and confidence in the wave. Doubly so for wet wave. Preparation, study, good procedures are essential... and cannot be transmitted via radio.

best,
Evan

T8

Although they were in thermal conditions and so not directly comparable to wave, when I was a pupil on lead and follow courses, at different stages in my flying, with 2 top pilots the main aim was that the pupil should experience the same air as the teacher at as close to the same time as possible so that we could understand why the leader responded the way that he did - for better and for worse. To that end we flew in close (really close) line astern formation. In one course we also took turns at leading and justifying our decisions at debriefing. I think it is essential to experience and analyse the consequences of wrong decisions (hopefully a minority) as well as right ones.

Several good posts, but I think Per covers most of them in one. FWIW, I ran a racing camp for a couple of years where we had anywhere from 10-15 pairs trying at the same time. Out of that, maybe 20% of the pairs were able to pull off anything like a successful lead/follow. Out of all the different failure modes, the two biggest ones we

- Leader saying "I'll head out for that next cloud 7 miles out and let you know". Once you're more than a 1/2 mile apart, you're no longer flying the same flight.

- Followers who refuse to follow. I distinctly remember being at 7,000 feet on a beautiful day 10 miles from the home airport and my follower refused to pass up even a half knot as we went back to take a start. He simply wasn't ready to commit to XC at any level.

I would say that briefing the mission and especially the key parameters (hard deck, maximum separation, leader willing to pull the boards, appetite for landing out) needs to be done on the ground for a solid 20-30 minutes before you start flying.

P3



On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 6:49:58 AM UTC-4, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.

What happens if the distance becomes to big (10-15km) and I as leader finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.

Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do the leader have a few options:
- To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to give the followers the time to catch up
- Stay at could base to wait until the followers has the same height until leaving
- Pull the brake to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows
- The follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the sepperation bigger.

To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.

This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas (without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 08:37:12 -0700, Papa3 wrote:

Several good posts, but I think Per covers most of them in one. FWIW, I
ran a racing camp for a couple of years where we had anywhere from 10-15
pairs trying at the same time. Out of that, maybe 20% of the pairs were
able to pull off anything like a successful lead/follow. Out of all the
different failure modes, the two biggest ones we

- Leader saying "I'll head out for that next cloud 7 miles out and let
you know". Once you're more than a 1/2 mile apart, you're no longer
flying the same flight.

- Followers who refuse to follow. I distinctly remember being at 7,000
feet on a beautiful day 10 miles from the home airport and my follower
refused to pass up even a half knot as we went back to take a start.
He simply wasn't ready to commit to XC at any level.

I would say that briefing the mission and especially the key parameters
(hard deck, maximum separation, leader willing to pull the boards,
appetite for landing out) needs to be done on the ground for a solid
20-30 minutes before you start flying.

P3



On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 6:49:58 AM UTC-4, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points
enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.

What happens if the distance becomes to big (10-15km) and I as leader
finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until
the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it
was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They
will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base
and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next
thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead
will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.

Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km
in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do
the leader have a few options:
- To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to
give the followers the time to catch up - Stay at could base to wait
until the followers has the same height until leaving - Pull the brake
to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows - The
follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the
sepperation bigger.

To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences
in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.

This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline
and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that
the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals
and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas
(without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the
flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are
not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

Do you introduce your new pilots to flying mini-triangles when they're
getting ready[*] to go XC?

I found out about mini-triangles by word of mouth when I'd been solo
about 6 months and found that learning to fly them was a great help. As
an example, one I used a lot was a 43km/25mile triangle roughly centred
on our airfield and with its furthest point (one of the turnpoints) 10.5
km/6.5 miles from the field. Thats close enough to home to avoid worrying
a new pilot while just about big enough (longest leg is 16km/10miles) to
introduce them to the joys of flying a task while carrying a logger and,
preferably, a navigation system as well, especially if the turnpoints can
be put into their kit.

And of course you can use smaller triangles or squares if you want to
keep your fledglings within, say, 5 miles of home.


I think a new pilot can learn a lot from flying mini-triangles by
themselves, especially if they keep a record of times/speeds/weather/
flight logs so they can analyse their flights and chart their own
progress. Flying this sort of minitask makes progress toward the bronze
badge and XC endorsement rather more interesting than just noodling
around near the airfield.

FWIW, my club encourages new pilots to work on getting their bronze badge
as soon as they're flying single seaters (bronze requires 50 solo flights
including one and a two hour flights, all flown locally plus a written
quiz and a flying tests at the end of it ) and are reminded that Silver
height gain and duration can be flown as part of the 50 flights. Then, as
soon as a pilot has the Bronze XC add-on (navigation, field picking and
land-out practice, all done in a motor glider) they're readt to go for
silver distance.
[*] IOW, the new pilot can find and use thermals but doesn't yet have the
skills to fly to a turnpoint, let alone to do that at a reasonable speed.
Its also likely that he is not used to carrying a logger or using a map
or GPS system.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org