looking for advice on lead n follow flights

At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
as possible
bet=3D
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
within
eyesight=3D
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a
radio.=3D
=20
Thanks Per,=20
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
that
looks=20
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
=20
On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
same
place=
=20
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
issues
wit=
h
lift=20
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
zero, but
less=
)
=20
The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
cruising
alt=
..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
n
follow.
=20
So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
away from=
=20
them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
US.
Every=
one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
extremely
tech=
nical, landables fairly sparse. =20

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
but
e=
ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
A mile
o=
f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
to each
=
other.=20

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
by high
=
wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
"North
Up"=
probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
flown
t=
he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
ground speed is
v=
ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
100%
respons=
ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
Not
taking=
the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20

best,
Evan / T8


I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
feel.
You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
"I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
in the cloud"
So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
pressure on him that he doesn't need.
There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
settings
that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
mine.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 9:45:04 AM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
as possible
bet=3D
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
within
eyesight=3D
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a
radio.=3D
=20
Thanks Per,=20
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
that
looks=20
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
=20
On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
same
place=
=20
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
issues
wit=
h
lift=20
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
zero, but
less=
)
=20
The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
cruising
alt=
..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
n
follow.
=20
So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
away from=
=20
them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
US.
Every=
one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
extremely
tech=
nical, landables fairly sparse. =20

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
but
e=
ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
A mile
o=
f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
to each
=
other.=20

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
by high
=
wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
"North
Up"=
probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
flown
t=
he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
ground speed is
v=
ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
100%
respons=
ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
Not
taking=
the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20

best,
Evan / T8


I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
feel.
You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
"I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
in the cloud"
So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
pressure on him that he doesn't need.
There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
settings
that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
mine.

That's the thing. 1000hrs of XC in thermals isn't all that useful for safety and confidence in the wave. Doubly so for wet wave. Preparation, study, good procedures are essential... and cannot be transmitted via radio.

best,
Evan

T8

Although they were in thermal conditions and so not directly comparable to wave, when I was a pupil on lead and follow courses, at different stages in my flying, with 2 top pilots the main aim was that the pupil should experience the same air as the teacher at as close to the same time as possible so that we could understand why the leader responded the way that he did - for better and for worse. To that end we flew in close (really close) line astern formation. In one course we also took turns at leading and justifying our decisions at debriefing. I think it is essential to experience and analyse the consequences of wrong decisions (hopefully a minority) as well as right ones.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:57:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Although they were in thermal conditions and so not directly comparable to wave, when I was a pupil on lead and follow courses, at different stages in my flying, with 2 top pilots the main aim was that the pupil should experience the same air as the teacher at as close to the same time as possible so that we could understand why the leader responded the way that he did - for better and for worse. To that end we flew in close (really close) line astern formation. In one course we also took turns at leading and justifying our decisions at debriefing. I think it is essential to experience and analyse the consequences of wrong decisions (hopefully a minority) as well as right ones.

- With "really close formation" how did you (1) prevent running into each other and (2) accommodate differences in glider performance? Note that if you slow down to handle (1) you end up higher (2).

My "really close" isn't so close that running into each other would be a danger - but as close as we could. If someone dropped lower they would generally catch up in the next climb. If necessary the teacher dropped down to guide them up. The teacher in one case had the lowest performance glider - in the other marginally the highest and used the air brakes to keep down to our level.

One of the aspects that has only been briefly discussed:

The follower must follow! If they feel that they need "just a couple more turns" in the thermal and the leader has headed ou, They will be left behind in a hurry.

I have usually asked the "follower" to lead out and then I can trail or move abeam to discuss the next option(s).

I also have a plan discussed with the follower about the general direction of the task legs and what the bail-out procedure is. If the day is long enough you can do a short course and bring them back to the field for them to try is on their own.

MB